English

This is what I understood about this game:
PVP = Player vs Player (involves killing other player toon)

- OP wars
* OP mats a a reward
- SN Fights
* Supreme dug mats as a reward
- Tagged Fights
* pvp points as a reward

PVE = Player vs Environment (involves killing NPC/Mobs)
- NPC boss hunt
* NPC armor HA and LA as a reward
* NPC armor crafting (HA) as a reward
- Boss Hunt (mobs)
* Supreme mats as a reward

The game is designed in such a way that PVP and PVE will intertwined. A PVP player can get NPC armor using PVE while PVE player also can get OP mats as a product of PVP.

Now if a player or groups of player want to do strictly PVP or PVE please refer above if you are doing it right. Even if you are saying I am doing strictly PVE but you are using OP mats then it is not doing the right thing since OP mats are PVP rewards. There is no way in hell that a player can say I am strictly doing PVP unless he is using dug mats since looted mats are rewards for PVE.

So for me there is no strictly PVP or PVE there is only a group of players having fun in Atys who are doing both maybe less PVP and more PVE or vice versa. After all this is a sandbox game.

@Haniel: While I agree that PvP and PvE are intertwined, I think you fall to a fallacy. You are turning in a matter of morale and principle what is basically a matter of choice.

You may choose not to PvP, ok mostly (except FFA regions). Does that mean you must never touch any item being gained by PvP? That's not logical.

A PvP player cannot escape PvE. The mobs will be after her/him anyway, and levels are gained by PvE solely. And without proper arms, armor, and jewels, most PvP is pointless. If a PvP player does not want to do only fistfights clad in a PvP skirt while at level 1 all time, s/he must do PvE, and interact with PvE practitioners, and everybody would consider it outright mad not to do so.

I might avoid or have avoided any PvP all my life, does that mean that I must not use OP mats? Why?

I fully agree that most important is that players have fun, no matter with which apect of the game. Avoiding PvE altogether is simply impossible, avoiding PvP is possible, as is, e.g., avoiding digging and/or crafting. Some are doing so, and those fighters/mages only are entitled to harvested and crafted items, though, be it by trade, against services like protections, or simply by friendship.

Not engaging in aspects of the game is a choice. Not interacting with others is, if not totally impossible, much against the spirit of the game.

Daomei: What is not logical is only thinking that a PvP is only killing each other. Helping a player by crafting his gear to be use in PvP is same as helping him kill his opponent.
Example:
player A vs player B
player A ask player C to craft his gear to defeat B
so the pvp becomes AC vs B

take note that player C is only doing digging and crafting (PvE)

Daomei: By helping in NPC boss hunt or trading your points to anyone who does PvP is another example I illustrated above.

Using the OP mats you gain from trading your services or supreme mats from a player who do PvP is another example.

Let say by friendship you had acquired an OP mats. Sooner or later this friend of yours will ask you for something and it will become AC vs B.

As I said in my previous post PvP and PvE are intertwined therefore there is no such thing as purely PvE or PvP unless you wont interact with other players.

The more I read the better understanding I obtain.

I see as part of the problem here that this was a non-pvp game for what 7 years before pvp was added in.

That's seven years ahead of any new pvper that came in after it was introduced. That's recipes and helicopter dance and knowledge (seven years worth) ahead of any pvper that came in after pvp was introduced.

Now myself I am a straight forward person. I will tell you what I think. I will stand and fight you. I will take my lumps.

But the non-pvpers use different weapons. They don't stand and face someone. They have a different style.

So it's not really PvP vs PvE it's Pvp vs Diggers. ( no offense intended )

So I disagree with Haniel's list on that ground. PvPers are more liable to loot mats than dig mats. Though I know PvPers who are good at recipes and digging.

What I feel like is wrong is if PvP is not wanted and considered not needed here then why offer it on the website. Why take our money and then try to drive us out of the game? Just take it off the website. Make it not part of the game. Then all the little diggers can be happy again.

Otherwise we need to learn to get along. It's not fair to offer PvP on the website, take our money and then make it virtually an unplayable option.

Non sequitur. A PvP player giving me something of her/his PvP gained property - be it sup mat from SN, or OP mat - does not stop doing PvP by that. And when I am interacting with a player doing PvP I am not becoming a PvP practitioner no less than I am becoming a digger (I am one in my own right) by crafting focus armor and jewelry.

Your fallacy is that you judge PvP morally and think one has to do it or reject it. In fact it is not that way. PvP, like digging, crafting, mob and NPC boss (and named) hunting, and RP, is just an aspect of the game. It is an aspect some like and practise while others do not, or not often.

For me, players do exist, not "PvPers", "diggers", "crafters", "RPers" or whatever. All players do PvE (they cannot avoid it) unless they are exclusively sitting around and chat (which, then, is their legitimate choice as well).

When I craft something for somebody, I do not care whether she needs it for whichever legitimate activity in the game. I don't condemn PvP, I just don't practise it. Many do similarly, some choose to participate in OP fights only, or even are only part of a guild which does so. There is nothing wrong with.

The frontline PvP vs. non PvP simply does not exist. PvP in Ryzom plays a minor role than, say, in Eve. Yet there is no "PvE only" server as in many other games. Many if not most players practise at least some PvP or have done sometimes.

The quarrels and preoccupations like those Nehrie is employing of PvPer vs digger vs crafter vs game veteran or whatever may exist though, to some extent. They are similar to those between pre-merge community members evolving sometimes, fortunately, to an even lesser extent, nowadays. They are divisive and should be avoided or reconciled.

The original intent of the threadstarter was to find ways to make PvP more attractive. I support initiatives to do so, and read many of the contributions in this thread as ways how to achieve that, or to avoid wrong moves when trying to achieve it (e.g. offering rewards dragging "PvP farmers for reward" into PvP, which is a secure way to destroy fun for those interested in PvP itself). And I would suggest to go ahead in that direction and contribute in a constructive way.

The original title of this thread is "A lengthy consideration on Ryzom's status as a PvPer".

Anyway what would make PvP more enjoyable for me....

-Let me win every battle!
-Give me PvP points off every kill I make!

MWAUwauHAUghwaughWAUGH

PvP is very much about learning how to lose without taking it personally. Even when we have to invest millions of dappers and 4+ hours in OP fights, hours upon hours getting the materials for our gear, possibly years training multiple skill branches, and setting up multiple action bars.
There are 2 things that make it enjoyable for me 1) pvp can be combined with a moderate amount of role-play and 2) players are more of a challenge to defeat than AI mobs.

Non sequitur. A PvP player giving me something of her/his PvP gained property - be it sup mat from SN, or OP mat - does not stop doing PvP by that. And when I am interacting with a player doing PvP I am not becoming a PvP practitioner no less than I am becoming a digger (I am one in my own right) by crafting focus armor and jewelry.

Hehehehe. Daomei: Your argument is way up there. When you craft a gear for someone who does pvp you are helping him in pvp (player vs player) therefore it becomes you+him vs another player. In short you are participating in a pvp by crafting someone who involve in pvp. Since you participated in pvp then you are doing pvp.

Your fallacy is that you judge PvP morally and think one has to do it or reject it. In fact it is not that way. PvP, like digging, crafting, mob and NPC boss (and named) hunting, and RP, is just an aspect of the game. It is an aspect some like and practise while others do not, or not often.

Hehehehe. Daomei: All I am saying from my previous post is that both are intertwined you can not do without the other since they are intertwined. What I am saying also is that no one can claim that he is only doing PvP or PvE because they are intertwined.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I just want to post the concept of PvP and PvE in Ryzom as I understood. With regards to the original post, Yes, I agree with Riku, what Ryzom now is geared for pvp but not fully utilize.

If players want more OP war as an aspect of pvp then change the mechanics of OP war.
- use less dappers in declaring an op
- use loot method during op war

Another way is staging an op war
- declare a q50 op twice a month with a specific condition:
example:
- no guards/killing just wiping the other faction
- no ranged weapons and amps only 1h weapons are allowed
- only amps are allowed
- naked fights with dagger

Using the arena
- naked fights with dagger every last friday of the month. Winners will be given an unknown reward or a title (Queen/King of Daggers) from GM
- gladiators fight every second saturday of the month. A battle royal with mobs inside the arena (Kipucka, Kinrey or a Vorax) Jugula also is very interesting. Same reward but Champion of the Arena as the title.

With the help of crafters aka: Crafters Fight
- each warriors will be given a specific weapon from a crafter and have them fight. Same reward but The Lady/Lord of Crafting as the title. Sorry warrior no title for you only the crafter.

Those are all great ideas Hani. We have been discussing the possibility of a pvp tournament for a while now, It'd be nice to implement different win conditions instead of just "hack each other to pieces til enemy team dies". We just need to be realistic and realize the dev team probably can't implement any new gameplay at this point, so we need to see how we can use the map and what's already there creatively.

I think the major problem with tagged pvp at this point is the feel of really low rewards. You fight for 30 minutes nonstop, grind down your gear, then realize you only got 1-2k pvp pts max. And knowing that many ppl exploit the system to get 50k in a couple hours makes it worse. OP wars prove that with good and unique rewards even folks who dont normally like pvp still participate.

@Nehrie: LOL no, it wasn't 7 years. Game launched Sep 2004, Outpost pvp was added Dec 2005. So pvp wasn't really added that late at all. In fact, if the game had continued on its original path, it'd have been MUCH more heavily focused on pvp with partial territorial control of zones by faction a big thing. That would come in the form of spirals. A shame it never happened.

ah hahahha thanks for info rikutatis :)

You have just made Gidget's point "it doesn't benefit me so I'm against it" PoV being described. And your examples turn the table to create an argument that isn't there and was never presented.

Table Turn No. 1 - Exactly, the kosher person doesn't want a cheeseburger...THE problem is it is the ONLY thing being oiffered.... Two people walk into a restaurant, one easts one can't, they both get the same check ... you thinks that's fair ?

Table Turn No. 2 - Rangers are not involved because again, it is not being offered. Why can't Rangers own an OP near a kitin mound that defends Atys from Kitin Invasions ?

If a player restrict himself from certain activities, he also restrict from the rewards, provided through them. That's the drawback. If I'm too lazy to do multiple daily runs looking for bosses, or find it boring, I restrict myself from the boss loot. If I don't want to deal with aggro and weather, I restrict myself from harvesting supremes. If I don't participate in a football game, I get no shiny medal in the end. Oddly enough, I don't ask for a medal, because I was sitting on my couch with beer and chips and not sweating on the field.

In Ryzom PvP stuff is a reward for high-end content, just like boss loot or harvested supremes. This sort of content supposed to provide a challenge and requires training skills, gathering gear and quite often a team work. That's why it's called high-end or end game. Doing missions all day long, or visiting OP's hardly can be considered a challenge and barely requires any skills or gear, let alone a team work.

So instead of asking for equal access for all, you better ask for equal challenges. Or real game economy with all items being up for trading, which can be a sort of equalizer, but not in Ryzom, considering that dappers are worthless and any serious change on that front likely to be met with fires and pitchforks by the community.

Two things:

1. Your points are not responsive to the actual proposals put forth but create a new straw man which wasn't actually suggested.
2. You need to "look outside the bubble" that is the current rewards system and look at it from a) what the game was purported to be 12 years ago and b) what is possible.

No ... the suggestion that you have to "break in and steal it" is a facetious argument.

A. What is the basis of your supposition that Q250 Erigos is available at only 1 place on the planet ? Even w/o a big faction drill, enterprising homins would find a way to mine it tho less efficiently and therefore in smaller numbers. These would make their way to market vendors both legal and black market.

B. The planet has way way more than 28 OPs. The game opened in 2004 with just 28 OPs with the built in capability and stated intent of making more OPs live as when either a) population made it appropriate or b) storyline progressed. Given the limited quantity of different materials, these materials must be there.

C. In our own or any created world, if there is a demand for a product. means will be found to obtain the product whether legally or thru the black market. In our world, if someone wants boner pills, you can go thru proper channels and get a prescription or you can just order them online. In the game world, if 250 Erigos exists, it is totally illogical to assume that there will not be alternate sources available.

D. These mats are something currently obtained with the assistance of the higher powers. So, since a ranger can do any Kami / Kara missions, what logic dictates that a ranger could not do a kami / kara mission to obtain same ?

"Wipe out 10 Kitin patrols and the Kami / Kara will be extremely grateful to you and ... "

E. What logic dictates that the goals of the Rangers and Kara / Kara must never coincide ? Aren't K / K anti-kitin ? Why can't Rangers earn those same K / K points and earn rewards just as factioned players earn civilization based rewards ?

F. There are serious advantages to having 100 fame in a civilization; what logic dictates that there couldn't be an advantage to having max fame with all civilizations ? What if there was an Encyclopedia (Fame 50 requirement) rite that allowed you to get 1/4 of the ingredients to make say rubbarn and, like with the Restoration Specialist for NPC armor, you could spend points and dappers to get a single mat.

If i said I was going to watch the recently released [insert movie name here] tonight, would you say that "The stores are closed, what are you going to do break in and steal it ?". No, I'll just stream it from Netflix or one f the other (legal) services.

G. The Q50 Q50 Greslin straw man doesn't work for the reasons you stated. It would involve homin vs homin conflict. It also was not one actually suggested as a) it was clearly stated that the ranger Ops would have equivalent but not the same OP mats so this straw man fails there and b) the Ranger OPs could not be declared on so the scenario could not arise. The Ranger OPs would exist to defend kitin invasions (game mechanics already exist) ... so essentially the Kitins would be the declarers.

As defined, located next to kitin mounds, entrances to PR or near civilized areas, these OPs would be the 1st line of defense against invasions. Just like OP declares, a Kitin Observer would list the "declaration" by observing kitin activity nearby so as the OP owners could have time to prepare an appropriate defense which would include signing on defenders from potentially all factions who would in turn earn points / rewards for doing to ... tho obviously not at the rate that Rangers would .... much like someone who is 50-50-50-50 in racial fame doesn't get the same rate of reward as someone with 100 fame.

[quote=Tumbleweed]
Don't understand .... Equal challenges aka "equivalent time and effort" is EXACTLY what was stated.

This. They tried to make the economy work again during the merge, greatly increased the price of picks and tools, diminished the profit from selling junk craft and mats, etc. It did help a little. Dappers are worth more now. Specially for guilds that need dappers to declare OPs. Used to be before, spending 60 mil on a fancy tattoo was no big deal =P

But dappers can only be used for certain things, like TPs or OP wars. Outside of that they have no value. Because there's no dapper based economy of players buying and selling goods and services. I think a large part of that is due to the player base. Supply and demand. The player base is very small, so there is more availability of mats, bosses, supremes, etc, than players to use them. Guilds and friends give everything for free, from grinding gear all the way up to boosted OP weapons. That kind of kills any chance for a dapper based economy. If something like that existed, you could for example do Dante boss hunts with your guild, then sell a full Dante set for some 30 mil to a solo player who hates npc boss fights, and with those 30 mil you buy a boosted vedice axe from a pvp player who needs the dappers to go and buy a bunch of supreme materials because he hates digging. You get the gist.