EVENTS

[ooc:]A short comment to Feylin's proposals: If you succeed to impose these rules onto the international assembly, it will surely be the end of international roleplay. I do not believe that many of the non french participants will appear at such meetings. As to the participation of the sages: they were at least some kind of an impartial element so far. If you want Zorai RP becoming a Jen Lai only performance, this will surely be the right way.I can congratulate you to the success of already having nearly driven out the representative of Hoi Cho from Zorai RP. When that is done, Hoi Cho activity will die down as Min Cho already widely has.[/ooc]

[ooc] Daomei, i just don't see why. It seems that you (all) are fine with having gathering in the same way as IRL chats, this is not my case, i like the events to have a taste of different culture. This is what i try to have, and have worked on with many topics related to Zoraï culture. This is going to be discussed in roleplay, so you can't seriously tell me i am imposing something.
If you rather have a Sage doing the Job of Orator that i described, it's fine, as long as they are willing too.
And allowing translators to have the time to do their job is a real matter.
It seems that you build an opinion on my OOC motivations that is wrong. I can just suggest you to stop making prejudice on me.[/ooc]

First of all: thank you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, for informing Hoi-Cho about your ideas. It confuses me a little that you didn't use the open letters but added your suggestion to the minutes of Hoi-Cho...

What kind of "aim" would you see for our Assemblies to have? You might remember Initiate Valandrines words that the Sage agreed to?

1. I can assure you that the agenda cannot be prepared before the Assembly, even if I would like it. I have already revealed the reasons for this in my own suggestion. You cannot order the Sages to read or even add to this list of topics before the Assembly if let's say they want to invite special guests or announce news.

2. your suggestion to address the topics in this order seems logical enough, but there what if the Sages have breaking news to tell us - do you want to tell our Sages to respect "speaking orders" and wait with their announcements - maybe until the end of the Assembly or the timespan of their attendance? And what if special guests do not have much time and can attend to the Assemblies only a short while?

More efficiency is much needed for our Circles, as we have already been able to experience. We should never forget our goal to reach solutions and decisions for all important topics in time, and never too late.

3. this seating order is an interesting idea since it would be the only visible difference to the Assemblies of other Nations. Still I cannot agree to it. First of all you cannot order our Grand Sage Mabreka Cho where he should sit, neither our respected Sages! It doesn't surprise me that you would like to so nonetheless...

Secondly it is too complicated and would need too much space. Also we were repeatedly told that our circles of the Theocracy should not be seen as a hierarchie. But sadly this order would make it seem so... It especially gives the Awakened more of a special space than now as I can see - what a coincidence that you yourself are an Awakened, no?

Titles should never be the main factors to distinguish others; especially because some ambassadors or representatives of foreign countries do not even have titles they could show; you know? The balance of the cities should also be counted. And how could anyone's seat possibly facilitate their speaking? That's absurd.

I suggest a compromise as it seems more functional: let the representatives of the Circles and cities who are entitled to vote at the Assembly sit a bit closer to the ones leading the circle (the Sages, their assistants like those from the Dynastic Circles and their special guests) so that it will be easier to see them when they stand up and to overview their votings.

4. I am still very much against naming an Orator instead of the Sage/s who is/are leading the Assemblies. I have named the reasons already. We have seen that no Orator was needed until now, as the Sages have led the Assemblies. Wanting to reduce their importance for Assemblies shows grave disrespect I believe.

Could it be you are so used to being the Orator for your city, Awakene Fey-Lin Liang, that you want to lead also the national Assemblies now and be able to command others if or when to speak like the Akenak enjoys doing? Your way of phrasing your suggestions with "shall" and "may" seems to indicate that you are used to giving commands to troops, as do your strict and military-like suggestions for the political Assemblies.

5. what about "bringing back calm" or "moderating"? This is not necessary. Do you really believe that silence and waiting just for the purpose of waiting are some kind of Zorai principles? Nobody on Atys can "interrupt" others, and nobody can drown out voices of others. Everyone is clearly heard. Just not the voices of those that an Orator might wish to order to be silent like the Akenak tries to do of course...

It is not a sign of disrespect to reply to someone when you think s/he has finished talking; which happens often. If a dialogue picks up speed - even after putting up hands and being called up! - then translators will not be able to keep up as it has already happened before. This is not a matter of "speaking order" at all, but rather of speaking speed.

6. I don't see any need to have minute takers introduce themselves, also not translators. For example: the honored Awakened Astarth never wrote a record for the first national Assembly of Zora in the dialect of Min-Cho even though he said he would. At the moment we can consider oneselves fortunate if we can even find someone willing to translate and to write journals. To make these matters seem like duties and add more bureaucratic formalities to them could very well only raise the hurdles and nobody might volunteer then.

7. so you want to exchange the hand signs that have been in use up until now with standing up as a sign that someone wants to speak - and only one "next" in line would be allowed to do so? As interesting as it sounds this cannot work out. It's just too unrealistic, sorry. You do not really expect Homins to sit down again when others have stood up just an instant before them and then not being able to signal that they still want to speak later on, do you?

Especially as there are new arguments being brought up during everyone's speach that even more Homins would like to comment to as well. This would only end up by seeing everyone throw murmured comments around. And trying to keep up "calm" and organize such a complicated standing order would just keep those busy that have to lead Assemblies - but for a completely unreasonable end.

Also this would take much too long. Our last Assembly has shown that we should not ever again dilly-dally but instead must try to come to decisions faster. To slow down the collection of informations could very well lead to the postponing of many topics that could not be addressed in time.

Some people will not want to give their imputs anymore if the hurdles to do so should get too high; I have been told so already by some Homins! A "standing order" would only lead to that end - the audience keeping silent, not daring to say a thing. Being not informed thouroughly and such draw the wrong conclusions would be the worst outcome for the Circles. The goal of Assemblies should be to find wise decisions timely.

8. about translations: sometimes translations have been done secretly by whispering (language-specific universe chat or user-chat) instead of being done aloud as it has been at the very first Great Assemblies of our Nations. Secrecy has been of disadvantage: if speakers cannot hear if the translators are able to keep up or are falling behind, then they cannot show consideration by slowing down their speaking speed.

9. so you do you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, want to have some longwinding philosophical reasoning of yoursself interrupted by "Orators" other than the Sages, for the purpose of proceeding to the next topics? Of course you don't. How interesting that you do not want only the Sages, but also the Awakened - such as yourself - to "approve" to putting an end to longer debates? Isn't your intention showing just too obviously?

As you repreatedly speak of "respect", Awakened Fey-Lin Liang: what do things like that even have to do with "respect" or "disrespect"? Has respect - or rather showing submissiveness by staying silent while you are talking - suddenly become the most important principle of our people and Nation? Do you ever include "respect" for the audience, for those you call "other Homins" in your picture as well; especially Non-Initiates living in the Witherings and Homins who hold important informations about a number of topics?

Again I want to point out that translating does not get harder by speaking orders or by brief comments being thrown in - but instead by the amount of words that are spoken in a short time. It often happens when single Homins are unrolling long arguments, but in a fast speed of speach. Like you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, and also my humble self use to do.

So shouldn't your own way to voice long arguments in a fast pace seem very "disrespectful" in your own eyes; since it makes translations harder and such "excludes" homins who speak other dialects? At the last Assembly you have even asked the Sage to address the topic you wanted to speak about first, even though he was not finished with putting together the list of agenda. So what is it really when you're talking about "respect"?

It just can happen, and in fact very often does, that you might think someone has finished their arguments already and just as you start to reply they will then add another sentence. That's how things are like on Atys, because everybody needs a little time before saying a whole sentence. Do not call this "disrespect", as it would be unfair.

Translating even when Homins have freedom to speak has worked out very fine for a number of times already. The Nobles of the Matis for instance are quite free to speak. And it seems like you are soon going to be appointed Zorai-Ambassador for the Verdant Heights, doesn't it?

10. oh, and about weapons: the Sage Sens / Gangi Cheng-Ho has already asked a homin - Akenak Rollocks - to put away his weapon at an Assembly of Hoi-Cho. So it seems that the Sages want to forbid the carrying of weapons at Assemblies. Perhaps they won't mind magic amplifiers, I don't know. I suggest asking them.

That was all, thank you for reading

(OOC: about Events - are you mocking us on purpose? You of Jen-Lai and other French cities are the only ones to have gotten any regional Events organized by the Event-Team. We of the former server Leanon have suggested a number of Events already, also political ones like the Ceremony for the second Great Swarming; but there has not even been ONE Event executed by the Event Team for our language group since the server merge. Our wishes are just postponed and postponed time and again.

The little bit of talking at Assemblies is ALL we Leanon-roleplayers have right now. Well, except for prices being given to three Homins quickly at one occasion; which I can hardly call an "Event" at all. And a small number of player-events like guild-celebrations or a black market once, which have once or twice been spiced up a little by decoration provided by the Event Team for that short time...

Still the Assemblies are the only times when the Event Team actually talks to us IC; as the forums are not read and too many of our political letters have just been ignored as well. Thank you for encouraging them to sleep through the Assemblies in the future and doing even less!

And about what Daomei said: well, I still have hopes for Min-Cho. At least Fitis and Astarth have become Awakened lately :) But the interest in attending to Assemblies is definitely dwindling among former Leanon-players. Have you noticed that the Awakened Sartyrica hasn't said much at all at the last Assembly she attended? The player came online during the last Assembly as well (even though it was a little late, but the Sage was still with us); however did not even want to come to Zora.

And just yesterday there should have been an Assembly of the Akenos in Dyron - but not only did the two Akenos not show up in Dyron, also the Event Manager, the imperial messenger, did not. This has never ever happened before.

Nine "other" Homins, the "audience", waited for one and a half hour talking a bit about this and that until the last ones left. One of them said that the Assemblies in Pyr are not worth attending any more, others say that Assemblies have become boring because of so many silent waiting-pauses that the French players insist on, and others think their characters should best stay away from Assemblies as a logical reaction to have been treated badly or because their Nation had been insulted. It was outright depressing.)

Hello,

I'm sorry to interrupt in a zoraï subject. I just want to add one thing about this "technical" part, since I'm sometimes acting as translator.
Since I feel this subject is a bit tense, feel free to make me know if I have to remove it from here (and, please, consider any "unrespectful" sentence as a consequence of English not being my native language, and not from any lack of respects to the players involved).

I agree on the fact that having a separate channel for translation, usually user-chat for the events I have attended, has disadvantages.
- One of them, you mentionned it, being that speakers don't know when to slow down or make a pause for translators to keep the pace.
- An other one, that I have heard about, being that it requires players to follow 1 more channel, since part of the around chatter may also be in their language.
- I also heard that some players already had some others user-chat opened, and it required them to close one to open the translation-chat.
- There may be others that I'm not aware about.

I agree on all of these disadvantages for the attending players, and I, as a player, understand why I've seen, on some events, all the translations for a linguistic group done on the around channel.
For that matter, when translating to english, I also do it usually in around, since I don't know of any specific channel for english-speaking players.

As an occasional translator (and not as a player following the event this time), I'd like to point the advantages that I find in a separate translation-channel. (It is only my feeling. Others translators might disagree.)
Globally, they result from the fact that translation in around means 3 times the same conversation being held at the same place.
- The translator has got to read each sentence (or at least, the beginning of it), and decide if s/he has to translate it or if it is already a translation. It takes time. It takes concentration. And when the pace is quick, it definitively increases the difficulty of the task.
- It means more lines shown up on the screen. Either you increase the size of your around-chat window (and even this has sometimes reached the limits of my screen) or you scroll up and down. More times, and more concentration, required.
- Last one is not directly related with the previous ones : sometimes, for reasons of their own, players may be out of reach of the speaker (big assembly, temporarily afk, character logged for chatlog but no player attending...). A separate channel means that the player still can get the contents of the event.
(Agreed, it also means that someone not attending the meeting knows about what happens. On an IC point of view, it may be a disadvantage.)

Since I've never attended any Circles meeting, all this is a bit theoric in this context.
I just hope that it might explain why, when translating an event, I prefer working on a separate channel. As may some others.

Thank you for your attention.

Kamia'ata,

I'm sorry to confuse you, but in fact you used these minutes of Hoï-Cho to write your own proposal and the report about the Assembly of Zora. I didn't check if I was answering in the right place, assuming you used the right place too.

But now, I am surprised and saddened by the personal, negative, interpretation that you give or imply about my motives. This is unacceptable, and I ask you to retire your words about my motivation.


Fey-Lin Liang.

Atys'ata, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang,

So you are ignoring my questions again as I can see - this time it's the one about the "aim" that Assemblies should have. And once again you solely express your displeasure and point out mistakes, just as usual. I wonder if there is anything that will ever suit you; except for your own opinions and habits of course?

I am rather sad that you view my honest words and questions as some kind of accusation. Instead I thought you might appreciate it if someone dared to openly voice the impressions one might very easily get about your intentions. Not only when reading your suggestions for Assemblies of the Circles of course, but also by taking the imperious words into consideration that you have repreatedly used when talking to others up until now.

Oh yes, I should definitely rewrite some things; you are absolutely right.

a) there is in fact something missing in this sentences: "First of all you cannot order our Grand Sage Mabreka Cho where he should sit, neither our respected Sages! It doesn't surprise me that you would like to so nonetheless...".

It should be corrected to: "First of all you cannot order our Grand Sage Mabreka Cho where to sit, neither our respected Sages. It doesn't surprise me that you would like to do so nonetheless...".

Unfortunately the "do" was missing in the second sentence, I have to apologize for that.

b) yes, that sentence should be corrected as well: "It especially gives the Awakened more of a special space than now as I can see - what a coincidence that you yourself are an Awakened, no?".

I think it would sound better if phrased like this: "This especially provides the Awakened with a more outstanding position as it is now - what a coincidence that you yourself are an Awakened, no?"

c) unfortunately there are errors in this sentence as well: "Could it be you are so used to being the Orator for your city, Awakene Fey-Lin Liang, that you want to lead also the national Assemblies now and be able to command others if or when to speak like the Akenak enjoys doing?"

It should rather be: "Could it be that you have accustomed so much to being the Orator for your city, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, that you now want to lead the national Assemblies as well and wish to command others if or when to speak, just like some Akenak enjoy doing?".

I have to apologize for leaving out the "d" when writing "Awakened".

to be continued...

... continuation

d) well, I do not really find any reason to rephrase this: "Your way of phrasing your suggestions with "shall" and "may" seems to indicate that you are used to giving commands to troops, as do your strict and military-like suggestions for the political Assemblies.".

Do you think it should rather be "phrasingyour suggestions using "shall" and "may" "? Hm, maybe it should also be "rigid" instead of "strict", shouldn't it?

e) sadly there are some mistakes in this passage too:

"So you do you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, want to have some longwinding philosophical reasoning of yoursself interrupted by "Orators" other than the Sages, for the purpose of proceeding to the next topics? Of course you don't. How interesting that you do not want only the Sages, but also the Awakened - such as yourself - to "approve" to putting an end to longer debates? Isn't your intention showing just too obviously?"

How about phrasing it like this instead:

"So would you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, be interrupted in some longwinding philosophical reasoning of yourself by "Orators" other than the Sages, so that the Assembly could proceed to the next topics? Of course you don't. How interesting that you do not want only the Sages, but also the Awakened - such as yourself - to first "approve" with putting an end to longer debates? Isn't your intention showing just too obviously?"

There was a superfluously "you" at the beginning of the passage and one "s" too many in "yoursself", my apologies.

f) well, there doesn't seem to be any mistake in this passage: "Do you ever include "respect" for the audience, for those you call "other Homins" in your picture as well; especially Non-Initiates living in the Witherings and Homins who hold important informations about a number of topics?"

That phrasing seems to be just fine.

g) my Min-Cho-dialect is not good enough as to know how to redo this sentence best, even if the word "own" appears twice, so I'd suggest leaving it as it is: "So shouldn't your own way to voice long arguments in a fast pace seem very "disrespectful" in your own eyes; since it makes translations harder and such "excludes" homins who speak other dialects?"

Or perhaps you'd prefer the wording "your own way of voicing long arguments" instead?

h) and yes, this passage needs to be revised too, true: "At the last Assembly you have even asked the Sage to address the topic you wanted to speak about first, even though he was not finished with putting together the list of agenda. So what is it really when you're talking about "respect"?"

"At the last Assembly you have asked the Sage to address the topic you wanted to speak about first, even though he was not finished with putting together the list of agenda. And you even phrased it as a surprise how the Sage could have "misunderstand" your question - just like you were naturally expecting him to answer to your concerns preferential. So what is it really when you're talking about "respect"?"

I hope this will suit your tastes more.

Zhoi

/me is nauseated by the walls of text and certainly is not going to read all the bickering back and forth between two catty toons. If this is RP, I'd rather attend corporate meetings.

Just thought I'd share. Do you ever consider if other can follow and/or are interested in following your long-winded posts?

(OOC, since you are too, but should not be in an roleplaying-forum:
what else than a lot of text did you expect to find in a forum? Funny glittering pictures or a bunch of voice-files? Who cares that you don't care? This is not "sharing" but trolling, nothing else.
Have you ever considered how completely absurd it is to tell others that you didn't read what they have written but you still don't like it - even though you don't even know what it is all about?
Next time you feel the urge to put up troll-posts in some random forum-thread; then try this at a real-life political forum please. Those guys really deserve it at least.)

[OOC]

I'd like to give my point of view, expecting this can cool down the topic (despite I know this barely works^^)

Like on the K/K opposition, it seems communities have different way to play.

On Aniro the assemblies were not all the same. Depending on countries the protocol was different, sometimes heavy, maybe impractical, but this give spicy, and fits to the Lore. For example it was common to mock the impossibility to attend to a chamber of Nobles without invitation if you were not a subject, even for a ambassador.

It seems to me that in several monthes all the internationnal assemblies will be "flatten". Discussions will occurs in full english with always the same people talking at the same level. At the end we'll only need one super-meeting at the ranger's camp.

According to IRL standards it will be very efficient, definitely. But ? what do we want ?
Well, one may say this is logical after living togother 8 years of exil in the same place...^^

On Aniro again, it was logical for someone who wants to involve for his country to pass some rite -citizen first- and then higher ones like Taliar, Akenak, Nobles and Awakened, or ambasador, etc. It was admited that those people had louder voices and responsabilities in their country, a advantage given for assuming a roleplay.

Feylin's proposition does not came from nowhere, and certainely not from her supposed wish to control theocraty, even if she loves to be involved for it. I think she only tries to perpetuate the traditions she had learned. I guess she feels a bit alone as a awakened. They should be more, and rotate for the role of orator (one per circle). Sometimes the orator is usefull as a fuse, not directly impling the Sage by arbitrating (I can tell even for zorais, the debates could be hard).

I do not say "Aniro is right". I just wanted to give my feelings.

[/OOC]

[OOC] Thanks, Zendae. I am aware that Feylin's proposals do not come from nowhere, as I knew a bit of Aniro even before the fusion, and observed several parts of the french language community's RP and most of forum communication since.

I do not say Aniro is wrong. But equally I do not say that the other communities, as far as they had lively roleplay, were or are wrong either.

As to the flattening, I fear that RP, when imposed the way proposed, will end in Aniro RPers conversing in English with nobody else listening. This will only be different in the Rangers' camp, the only place where interlingual communication and participation seems to work without major frictions.

As to the question of having to be Awakened or whatever to assume an office, nobody is demanding that exceptions approved by the authorities in the past in another world have to be generalized as a rule in the new world. But it is a legitimate demand and was assured before the fusion that those regulations in existance before the transition have to be honored. While I do not agree with Zhoi in a couple of questions, I here see a matter of principle and advise my fellow players not to give in. If the representative of the circles of Hoi Cho is not respected by her fellow Zorai in other regional circles, joint RP is not possible.

How the national assemblies have to be organized, is not my business, strictly spoken. I gave my opinion which is that as a non Zorai and non national, so it may be considered or ignored without any problem.

[/OOC]

(OOC: thank you, Zendae :)

Yes, we on Leanon also had different protocols and organization for Assemblies. I think they have been much like on Aniro - well, at least in the beginning, when many players were still interested in political roleplaying. I already explained IC that a lot of "rules" have just turned out to make Assemblies inefficiently. But OOC there's more to it! In the beginning there were quite a bunch of representatives for each country. But rigid rules but most of all lazy, blocking, sometimes illogical acting "officials" drove them away one by one.

Also for "listeners" the Nation's Assemblies were very unpopular back then. When I started with politics in February 2011, there was an "audience" of sometimes only three characters; sometimes even none at all! The election of Ambassadors, sometimes enabling political influences on events and especially giving the audience the possibility to actually take part and give inputs made Assemblies livelier and more popular :)

No, I totally do not believe that national Assemblies will "flatten" - not at all. Just on the contrary; I was glad to hear more characters speak their mind at the last Assembly in Zora. This is a great development; and I would love to keep on encouraging them to continue doing so :)

On the other hand the very "structured" and organized Assembly of the Akenak in Pyr was a sad sight; as there were only two Akenak attending it, and the audience has significally shrunk compared to the Assemblies before. The regional Akenos of Dyron are confused about the behaviour of the Akenak. Akenos Malin has disapproved of that during the last Assembly of Dyron. I fear that she and Akenak Arrlon might even feel driven away. It's high time to talk about this OOC after no Akenos attended the last Assembly of Dyron.

Yes: what DO we want?
Well, I can tell you what I would wish for - OOC as a player of course:
I want more players roleplaying representatives of their Nations, and I want Assemblies to be interesting events for as many players as possible

* for that end I think the most important factor is that Assemblies should have an impact on the world by initiating Events - like the Ranger's Assemblies do. It should be that way of course - but sadly we from the former Leanon-community did not get any support at all by our Event Team for even one political Event that we have suggested since RP-politics has started once again :( I think that the Ranger's Assemblies are so lively mostly because of that; if there were no Events (like collecting materials or exploring the Kitin-Nest) the Assemblies would surely become less and less popular, just like all the National Assemblies...

* also it cannot be too hard to become representatives. The higher the hurdles, the lower the interest in doing political RP. That's why I think that the title "Honorary Initiate" is very valuable. You can use it to tell players OOC: "come and give RP-politics a try; you can see that there are ways to take part in RP-politics without leaving your guild or having to change your playing-style" :) IC Zhoi has worked hard to earn the title of "Honorary Initiate" by being politically active, by services for her Nation! I think that should be worth a lot - maybe more than merely passing a "test" without having much political experience

* players seem to need more motivation to take up political RP at the moment - especially nowadays as either speaking English has become so important during Assemblies; since this already had a devastating effect on the political representatives from the former server Leanon :( Some German-speakers feel that merely having good translators is not enough to help them to actually take part in RP as equals...

* German players have expressed more worries that prevent them from taking up RP-politics: there has been lots of talks about some French players trying to dominate "our" players in many ways, to force "us" to change "our" playing styles, including using dirty tricks in RP-politics, drowning out the opinions of their "colleagues" by not treating them as equals, or even to drive "us" away on purpose.

* national Assemblies are seen as rigid, even as "unfair", and such are becoming more and more unpopular for representatives and audience alike - it is something some German-speakers blame mostly on imperious French players; in reality it's of course because of decisions made by Event Team

* so I think that the Event Team should start doing their best with motivating players to take up RP-politics, by listening to their worries and smoothing the way - as much as the Lore allows of course. Sadly many think that at the moment the Event Team does exactly the opposite; demotivating players and making RP-politics more and more un-fun. To be honest it has already been so before, but lately has become worse

* no, it's not like I want every Assembly to be alike! Not at all. They aren't right now: just take the Akenak and the Assembly of Nobles for comparsion. Still every Assembly should take motivating players to take part into consideration in my opinion. That can be accomplished in different ways, so each Nation can be different.

What does Zhoi want IC?
Yes, she definitely wants Assemblies to be efficient - because Assemblies are the instrument to decide about national matters. Some matters are urgent and must not be delayed for too long, especially not just because of "honoring" time-wasting protocols. Yes, she has a history and keeping up contacts with other Nations for many, many AtysYears have of course formed her personality and views of the world.

I can fully understand Fey-Lin Liangs (the character's) motivations as a player of course. Do I seem to be stupid, or do you think I'm inconsiderate as a player? As a character Zhoi might be that sometimes, true ;) Still understanding does not mean supporting. I have my own reasons OOC and Zhoi has IC too.

Well, IC the Awakened Fey-Lin Liang and Zhoi will of course keep on fighting for the time being :D Nothing you can do about that I fear. There might be some votings at Assemblies about all this. But in the end it's the Event Team that will decide, as has always been, using their roles of officials and rulers.

(ooc) On Leanon, none was allowed at the Chamber of Nobles but the Nobles and the Ambassadors (on whose the Chamber had to agree). There were - very, very rarely - public assemblies. (ooc)