IDEAS FOR RYZOM


Turn Cat producton rate back up.
Yes 59 (7)
67.8%
No 23 (1)
26.4%
Other 5
5.7%
Abstain 5
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#46 [en] 

Daomei, the situation in leanon is very different than that of arispotle. Arispotle has a larger population with a lot of transient players. You should pop into silan someday and see how active it is. I doubt any guild on arispotle has turned cat production off. The fact of the matter is that a guild can no longer supply the needs of their guild by holding one op. If this continues, eventually only a few large guilds will remain.

#47 [en] 

Zyeir
Daomei, the situation in leanon is very different than that of arispotle. Arispotle has a larger population with a lot of transient players. You should pop into silan someday and see how active it is. I doubt any guild on arispotle has turned cat production off. The fact of the matter is that a guild can no longer supply the needs of their guild by holding one op. If this continues, eventually only a few large guilds will remain.

This is spot on, it has to be taken up at a server level, it wont be the same on each server.

#48 [en] 

Faa
I cannot give a definite opinion if the current cats production is enough or not. Not playing like I used to play years ago to have first hand data. But if people complain about it, there must be some problem. Usually in Ryzom an issue gets to the forums long after part of the population feel its consequences.
But I did vote "other" because the limited number of OPs that didn't change for the last how many? 8 years? encourage political ownership instead of guild content. More OPs with current cats spawn (or at least less cats spawn than in the past) would allow guilds to chose their real allies not be forced to work only as big alliances. It may enocurage smaller scale pvp as well.
More OPs of q50-150 at surface would encourage newcomers to form new guilds. OPs mean a fantastic guild content and they have a psychological importance that supercedes by far cats and mats one. An OP is a guild "home". Strong hard to attack/defend OPs in the q250 areas or in the PR would allow older guilds to make a point of honour in keeping them.

In short: keep rate low but increase OPs numbers.

Yes this is very much the case, i can say that Soul viewed its outpost in FF as "home" even though it was rocked by war countless times it has a feel of worth to us even now regardless of its cat production of which most was given away to other guilds anyway.

More level 50 to 150's would encourage more guilds to get involved and be created though if you included lala's suggestion in some form or another about maintaining outposts through either resources, missions or a combination would reduce the number of outposts a guild can hold this would also encourage more guilds to get involved, alliances being formed between guilds to help each other hold them etc.

A nice mix would be encourage guild growth, guild activity and politic's

P.S Nice to see you again Faa btw ;)

#49 [en] 

Soloreaper
Zyeir
Daomei, the situation in leanon is very different than that of arispotle. Arispotle has a larger population with a lot of transient players. You should pop into silan someday and see how active it is...
This is spot on, it has to be taken up at a server level, it wont be the same on each server.

I guess I know the situation on Arispotle somewhat better than you think as I have toons there as well as on Aniro. I agree that the shortage is felt harder with the larger population, and I do not know whether or not there are technical reasons to keep the three shards identical. If not, an adjustment according to the rate of usage would make sense.

I doubt, though, that such an adjustment, even if it would not mean reducing cat production on Leanon accordingly, would suffice to dampen the complaints. The problem I see is that roughly 9 mths ago, with patch 1.12, the devs not only throttled cat production of the outposts, but simultaneously offered a new path of obtaining cats, open to everybody, thus linearly scaling with server population. Same goes, btw., with other methods of buying cats by faction points, at least for qualities 50 and 100, and to some extent 150. And a transient population mainly comprising of free to play accounts does not need the higher qualities so dearly or even doesn't need them at all.

As long as any solution other than raising op output is met with anything from flat refusal over mockery to outright astonishment about the exotic habit of using what the devs have implemented, I fail to see a real shortage of cats, rather a shortage of cats for free. My question about what effort would be considered adequate in return for a stack of cats of given quality remains unanswered.

Btw., I agree to Bittymacod that a more flexible drill configuration would be a good thing, as probably are more active outposts of lower levels. This is independant from production rate considerations.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#50 [en] 

Daomei,

Your solution to use the occupations to make catalysts does not make any sense as stated previously. You are better off not making cats at all, and instead using the time to level the skill, in fact if you take into account the timer required to grind occupations to a point of producing q250 cats, it makes no sense at all. I really do not understand why you keep saying that occupations are a real alternative when they are clearly not. You keep bringing it up but the math does not pan out. If you want to refute this, please post a very detailed analysis of grind times on occupations for production of cats, as well as an estimate of the timer required to grind the occupation levels to mastery.


Furthermore your claim that OP cats are "free" is nonsense. Aside from the dapper cost, it take a good amount of coordination and resources in the form of time, weapons, and mastery of combat skills by many players to take and hold an outpost. I am sorry that on aniro new guilds have no chance at attaining one, but that should not be a reason to punish the rest of the population by making outposts irrelevant.

#51 [en] 

I'm sure the folks on Anrio are pretty much the same as folks on any server in any game. Open a dialog, create alliances and indulge in diplomacy and the doors to new ventures begin to open.

All things can be achieve given the right mix of time, effort and honesty

#52 [en] 

Zyeir
Daomei,
Your solution to use the occupations to make catalysts does not make any sense as stated previously. You are better off not making cats at all, and instead using the time to level the skill, in fact if you take into account the timer required to grind occupations to a point of producing q250 cats, it makes no sense at all.

I really do not understand why you keep saying that occupations are a real alternative when they are clearly not. You keep bringing it up but the math does not pan out. If you want to refute this, please post a very detailed analysis of grind times on occupations for production of cats, as well as an estimate of the timer required to grind the occupation levels to mastery.

I beg your pardon, but you are talking rubbish about something you obviously haven't tried and don't understand. I have all basic occupations complete (grade 6) which took me - as a beginner who still made many mistakes and hadn't all recipes at 100% - bit more than 3 mths of time and always small portions of my playtime (Granted, finishing all kitin lair occupations was hard at times, but was thrill and fun as well). Using 100% recipes, it takes 39 days to complete an occupation from start to grade 6 (needed for q250 cats), and you can do 3 occupations at a time without any hassle, 4 with a bit of changing every day, and at maximum4.5 on average (one day 4, next day 5, or one day 6, next day 3).

Average time to obtain a set (2x4 certs) for producing occupation products takes between 6 and 15 minutes for the non kitin lair occupations. For kitin lair occupations, it widely differs between around 5 minutes for medic, and up to half an hour for larvester (which is worst of all and I don't recommend to use it for cat production at all). All that is without optimizations such as acting in bigger teams, using mount for magnetic cartographer etc. which can bring down production time further. Note that kitin lair products count double for cat production, you need only 9 instead of 18 as a component to obtain nexus crystals.

I estimate that cat production takes about 10% of my overall playtime when I am doing it alongside my normal play which involves much digging, crafting, training of melee and magic, boss hunts, and roleplay. That way I get an average of 1000-1800 cats (q250) a day. I am fine with under normal conditions. At times when I am doing tasks involving insatiable hunger for cats (such as when I finished light armor doing up to 15 lvls a day) I have to increase effort, involving my alt etc., and even continue without when running out of cats.
Furthermore your claim that OP cats are "free" is nonsense. Aside from the dapper cost, it take a good amount of coordination and resources in the form of time, weapons, and mastery of combat skills by many players to take and hold an outpost. I am sorry that on aniro new guilds have no chance at attaining one, but that should not be a reason to punish the rest of the population by making outposts irrelevant.

You misunderstood me. As far as my way of expressing myself is responsible, I apologize. I know very well, and already mentioned before, that winning and holding an op is quite a lot of effort, and that it is fully ok that the holders get a reward in cats and mats. When I am talking about cats for free that refers to the situation before patch 1.12 when cats were available so abundantly that they were useful but worthless and given to anybody for free.

I am in no way opposed to outposts contributing to cats supply, only I am opposed to a monopoly of outpost holders as well as to a plethora of op produced cats rendering all other methods worthless.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#53 [en] 

In almost all MMO's there is something that is won or lost by PvP and whatever it is, be it a city, stronghold, outpost or mine that grants the victors a benefit making that benefit available to the masses without having to take part in the PvP makes that entity almost worthless.

Boosting personal production beyond a stack or two a day would belittle the outposts and the efforts guilds take to ensure their security, the time and gear spent defending them is huge including damage to PvP quality HA/Jewels and the amount of resources spent fueling Ranged fighters.

The Rareness of these items both cats & mats makes them more special increasing them deminishes all of them.

Their is nothing wrong with levelling without cats, folks should focus on the journey and worry less about the destination, levels will come in time and Ryzom has proven notouriously hard to kill she'll be here.

#54 [en] 

Daomei (Leanon)
I beg your pardon, but you are talking rubbish about something you obviously haven't tried and don't understand..

Well I certainly do. I completed all of the Basic Occs but w/o the benefit of being handed 100% occ recipes simply because when I did the occs, no one else had done most of them. Had help w/ 1st 2 or 3 but then interest waned and was a solo effort for most part. Butcher was a PITA doing solo.

For the non spoon fed, it takes a lot longer than the time you describe. But it was fun figuring them out so I didn't see it as a time investment issue. I very much enjoyed the basic occs... adv occs ... not so much.

On the other hand, using your own words about how long it takes to make 1500 cats, the fact remains if I simply grind a skill for that time, I'm getting more XP. When It takes longer to make the cats than it does to use them, it's a negative sum game.

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#55 [en] 

Fyrosfreddy
For the non spoon fed, it takes a lot longer than the time you describe. But it was fun figuring them out so I didn't see it as a time investment issue. I very much enjoyed the basic occs... adv occs ... not so much.

I am, to some extent, a non spoon fed, too. I figured out the first three occupations before advancing was blocked for months. My best riddle solution was 93% anyway, never achieved a better one on my own.

Yet, when advanced professions came, efficiency became an issue. Thus, I took help from friends, some guilds concentrating on occupations (not for free), and spoiler sites as far as available. In the meantime, solutions are widely known and aren't an issue. Still I suggest to anybody starting occupations to experience the fun of recipe riddles. Though I was not extremely successful, I enjoyed it.

On the other hand, using your own words about how long it takes to make 1500 cats, the fact remains if I simply grind a skill for that time, I'm getting more XP. When It takes longer to make the cats than it does to use them, it's a negative sum game.

You possibly misread me. I make 2-5 stacks a day (granted that 5 is together with my alt on the second sub) with an effort of about 1-1.5hr a day, all component farming included, in a relaxed way. I am speaking of q250. This spells 20-30 minutes per stack. (I may explain that in more depth if anybody is interested)

One stack is worth 100k xp, that's simple calculus. When I am in the final 10 or 20 levels, or leading edge in any crafting, I get an average of bit more than 100xp/mat. That means, digging 100k xp means digging 1000 mat, roughly. I am not a super digger who possibly yields 900 mats an hour, rather I am happy when considerably exceeding 600. Actually, 2000 in 3 hrs is a good result for me, often I get less when there is agro or I simply have tough luck with the sources.

Crafting is not done in zero time. I have to collect the harvest, place it on my beasts, undress, wield tool, and start crafting. Later I have to get rid of the products, normally by selling, as I detest build and drop. That means, that an additional half an hour at least is spent by crafting.

Thus, one stack saves me about 1.75hr (double result of 1.5hr digging plus half of .5hr crafting time) at the expense of 20-30 minutes to obtain one stack. Not bad for me.

Granted, yield is ways lower for q200 and q150 (few left at 150 for me). Yet I usually barter q250 cats against q200 at a rate of 3:5 and against q150 at a rate of 2:5 which widely makes up for the difference. I seldom use cats when overcrafting because that's waste, only when I'm in a hurry.

Last edited by Daomei (1 decade ago)

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#56 [en] 

I don't use alts or spoiler web sites and the latter didnt exist at the time as we were "blazing the trail". Don't think of them as riddles ..... trial and error to start and then process of elimination and algebra from there. Where I gotta fault ya logic in the 1st instances is you are discounting the alt's time..... your adv occ time has to be counted twice. You are having two toons work for the sole benefit one one.

As for the XP gained from cats, 999 x 100 = 99,900 is not exactly higher rmathematics. Its not claculus, just simple arithmetic. My 2nd problem is the overcomplication of the digging / crafting process. I have mastered all 5 lands and can dig anything in any one of the 4 racial lands and avoid aggro 99.5% of the time. As for crafting, the extra steps you list are virtaully timeless. I dig 4 bags, 3 go on my packer. Those 3 transfers take 0 time as it's done while digging.....cont'd.

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#57 [en] 

Once me and packer all full (1340-ish mats), there's that cupla 100m run to the hawker. ...and yes there's always one close by in 250 zones. While me and packer are runing, the jools/armor come off, tool gets loaded, actions, inventory and craft windows get opened, slots filled w/ mats and start crafting away as soon a standing in front of hawker. Take about 2.25 minutes w/ HA vests and 9 minutes w/ jools.

When bag gets full, crafts get sold to hawker. Adjusting for your 2k mats .....it should only take 3.5 minutes w/ HA vests and 13.5 minutes with jools or anywhere from 12% and 45% of that half hour you estimated depending on what ya crafting.

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#58 [en] 

Fyrosfreddy
I don't use alts or spoiler web sites and the latter didnt exist at the time as we were "blazing the trail". ...

Your choice, and a respectable one. Yet, once advanced occupations are an issue, it is more that recommended to use 100% recipes, no matter how one gained them. Most guilds have them, anyway, so there is no need for spoiler sites. Btw. I consider riddles a logical and mathematical challenge - most of them allow for a formal way of solution.

And no, I am not discounting the alt's time. I am calculating 2-2.5 stacks for me in roughly an hour when I am out with my alt and we are gaining the equivalent of 4-5k crystals. Would I go alone, it would take longer and/or yield less result. Were we in a larger group, yield could be optimized even more, especially in kitin lair.

Mind I mentioned 20-30 minutes per stack (more exactly, 24-30 minutes), this refers to a single char, not two.

My 2nd problem is the overcomplication of the digging / crafting process. I have mastered all 5 lands and can dig anything in any one of the 4 racial lands and avoid aggro 99.5% of the time.

I am not completely done yet with all countries thus have to take regions as they are, this will improve in the future. Anyway, when digging alone, I hardly harvest more than 500-600 mats/hr. When I have my alt taking care, it is more, and less stressful, but here again, two chars are involved, not one, so the yield would have to be divided by two.
As for crafting, the extra steps you list are virtaully timeless. ..

You are calculating optimum values under optimum assumptions assuming conveyor belt style drop-leveling. Not that this is not possible, but it is not always realistic and definitely no fun. At last with me, interruptions practically always lead to additional delay because other issues pop up once one switches back to home apartment or stable.

But even if you assume only 5-15 minutes for building and being back for digging, digging 1500mats alone is a matter of hours. And still, using cats, produced in less than half an hour per stack, double the xp yield or, in other words, cut the time to gain xp to half. I fail to see that you are anywhere close to yield 100k xp in 20-30 minutes by simply digging/crafting or fighting etc.

Anyway, I am not challenging the way you or others are doing your jobs, have fun with and be happy. But I contradict the notion that there is no advantage from obtaining cats through advanced occupations.

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Daomei die Streunerin - religionsneutral, zivilisationsneutral, gildenneutral

#59 [en] 

I'm very disappointed in the existence of spoilers .... "It's the journey grasshopper, not the destination". Those of us who "blazed that trail" mutually agreed not to create spoilers as it destroys the fun of the game. We don't even post 100% recipes on our own guild site for that reason. If you want to experience all the "challenge" and "fun" the that's there to be had in any game, then cheat codes, alts, spoilers should not be part of your tool set.

As for the 20-30 minutes per task, again not possible with a single character since you can't do more than 3 occupations at a time and have the 2 day cool down in between. At best, playing as a single toon, you need 4 days to complete production. To get all 8 slots filled ....7 days.

And where did the "drop leveling" come from ?.... Craft / Sell when standing in front of a hawker means 0 drops. You'll have to explain to me how standing in front of a hawker is not realistic or any "less fun" than crafting in front of a stable or wherever your selling your crafts. Every 250 region has a hawker very close to where the mats are ..... I have not found a case where I can't find one in a OP, safe camp or non-aggro area. I don't seem to get the interruptions you speak of when you are at apartment or stable.

I also find it quite contradictory when you say working efficiently (as in changing clothes while running) "spoils the fun" of the game, while you have no problem at all using "spoilers" as well as an alt to bypass that "fun" in order to gain a "cat production advantage". That contradiction exists in your 1st paragraph where you have sacrificed the fun of the "logical and mathematical challenge" so you can get the "cat production advantage" of 100% recipes with a "no matter how you get them" approach. Digging in the Egg Room is a challenge and requires the development of skill when you are alone ..... when ya have an alt hiding in the corner, not so much. Where's the "challenge" and the "fun" when there's no risk involved ?

As for fighting, working jabs, kinch or jugs....until ya get to 240ish and need plods, your getting way more XP per hour if ya selecting the proper mob for ya level.

100,000 XP / 30 minutes = 3,333 XP per minute .... a rather paltry production IMO.

I'm not saying that "there is no advantage from obtaining cats through advanced occupations." I see a clear advantage when doing them in groups or as a guild effort. But as to being worth the investment for a single player .... single being defined as no outside help from other accounts, alts, spoilers, etc., the math just doesn't work and it's not a real option for unaligned players or small guilds looking to enjoy all the game has to offer without "cheats".

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#60 [en] 

Fyrosfreddy
As for fighting, working jabs, kinch or jugs....until ya get to 240ish and need plods, your getting way more XP per hour if ya selecting the proper mob for ya level.

Assuming, of course, that you have a good group to grind with, which can be hard sometimes unless you've got a good guild or friends. But, if you do, then you should assume you're doing the occs with an equally good group.
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