Remove Neutral as an option for OP battles - IDEAS FOR RYZOM

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#16 Added by Meagon 1 decade ago [en]

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So you want to get rid of the fun some players have just watching the battles? I'm sorry but I can still see no reason for making them attackable or getting rid of nuetral completely. It would just ruin it.
I see Aniya but then people would abuse that and just kill the nuetrals for fun because the nuetrals cannot attack back.
Anyway I've stated my opinions and I shall stop now.

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Meagy :)
Spirit of Atys
High Officer of Spiritus Artificis
Never argue with an idiot; they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

#17 Added by Aniya(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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Meagon

I see Aniya but then people would abuse that and just kill the nuetrals for fun because the nuetrals cannot attack back.

You have a good point. That particular idea was not very well thought out. :)

#18 Added by Marelli(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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Aniya

(I really doubt that anyone can make more of a difference by soaking up the opposing side's heals than by contributing whatever healing they can to their own side.)

Well, there's definitely no way me soaking up 1/6th of a healbomb does more damage to the enemy side than me tagging up and joining the fight, but for a level 1 character it's another matter. I must note however, that healsoaking would also be solved if those damn bombs would simply chose the most injured people in the radius to bounce to, rather than the most healthy people as they seem to do now :P

Aggro-dragging and ranged-spotting are much bigger problems with abusing neutrals imo, and the best solution I can think of while still allowing observing, would be that instead of chosing attack/defense/neutral, the options be attack/defense/ghost, with ghost being the default mode if you don't chose any. Ghosts can't be targetted by anybody, don't show on radar, and mobs don't attack them as long as they're in the OP-area.

#19 Added by Loryen 1 decade ago [en]

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I am still uncertain why we need to maintain a "neutral" in a battle ground? What purpose do they play that they could not also do being tagged or sitting just outside the PvP zone (which btw is not that big).

So, please...explain for what legitimate reason do we need to allow them (other than to just watch...which they CAN do tagged)?

I see lots of ways allowing them can be abused (especially now that anyone can have unlimited free alts and multibox and/or multiclient), but no purpose other than because they want to watch. My desire is not to remove this "right" from people, but I do not see a way to keep it and deny the abuse. And the abuse to me is important enough to warrant this action.

Of course, I will continue to play and even continue to have fun if nothing is done...just offering a suggestion I think will make the game better.

If you are absolutely afraid of getting hit or making a stand in PvP...stay out of the small PvP region during the short time a preplanned dedicated PvP event is occurring. I do not see this as unreasonable.

Edited 3 times | Last edited by Loryen (1 decade ago)

#20 Added by Jayce 1 decade ago [en]

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Well as stated by others, the areas can be quite large actually, and the time window quite long. Not to mention that there's technically nothing stopping people declaring on several outposts at the same time and/or multiple times on the same OPs on a regular basis.(doesn't seem to happen much these days but certainly has happened in the past)

It could get quite annoying for people who regularly grind by outposts and I'm concern it could start to infringe on our consensual PvP policy.

Edited 2 times | Last edited by Jayce (1 decade ago)

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Noble Jayce
Reaper Leader

#21 Added by Marelli(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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It also goes totally against the wish of many people who want outposts to be *more* of a place to hang out. And could be seen as a stealth-change designed to make more areas of the game obligatory-PvP.

The solution, obviously, is to move all the active OPs to the PvP PR regions :D

#22 Added by Thaxlssillyia 1 decade ago [en]

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I personally like to watch OP fights from places where i can see the battle well.

My suggestion: Allow neutrals to be banned from a battle by both sides. If a neutral players gets banned he has to chose a side within some timeout, default could be the side opposing the one he was banned by. The only remaining problem would be players banned from all sides (simply removing neutral also introduces this problem).

Last edited by Casy (1 decade ago)

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Casy * Foreign Secretary * Alliance of Honor
Intensive Care Bear

#23 Added by Inifuss 1 decade ago [en]

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What you are describing Loryen is already against OP rules here, specifically 8c.

Last edited by Sywindt(Yubo) (1 decade ago) | Reason: Changed link to point to relevant post in new forums

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Peace, Luv & Cookies,
Inifuss

#24 Added by Ayto(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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I say Marelli's "ghost observer" idea is the best possible option. Just make neutral people in the warzone invisible and untargettable / unaffected; that way, they won't drag any aggro, they won't soak any heals, and they surely won't reduce the combatants' FPS, thus giving people no reason to complain. And they won't be able to target-assist either.

#25 Added by Loryen 1 decade ago [en]

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Okay, well what occurred specifically that made me want to address this issue. At the last TI vs. AA OP battle, we had "Flames of Atys" with the title "Karavan Follow" stood NEUTRAL in the center of each of our "heal pods". No amount of "oh, they were just watching" is going to convince me that they were not being used to /tar assist our healers.

Thanks for that link Inifuss (and Sywindt).

However, there is no way anyone can "prove" that is what they were doing, and I have no doubt they are a trial account with no links to any mains. If this not something the community feels they want to take a hard stance on then I will quit pushing to fix the problem and we shall see where it escalates.

#26 Added by Inifuss 1 decade ago [en]

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I can only speak for myself.. I was target assisting my team only. No one in the defense channel said anything about using them as a target for the heal pod so it was not used in general. If it had been, BM would have removed themselves from the battle. There were also neutral players in the OP when we were holding it but I never really paid them any mind.

There was a battle that I attended as neutral, I made it a point to move out of the mages and healers way though they kept coming around me. Perhaps just a gentle reminder to neutrals (many of them non-experienced players) to move is all that is needed. If they do not, then that could be taken as a sign of exploiting and would be reportable according to the guidelines.

Just a thought :-)

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Peace, Luv & Cookies,
Inifuss

#27 Added by Loryen 1 decade ago [en]

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I will try asking next time. Maybe that will be sufficient. Sorry for blowing this up into a big deal...I was just afraid of what it might turn into if the factions really start fighting and doing anything necessary to win again.

#28 Added by Iala(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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It's easy to wander into a warzone unintentionally, or pass through it on your way elsewhere (especially during the declare and after battle phases when the zone is flagged for 24 hours before and after the war).
To punish people for being near an outpost by making them ganking targets is not in the spirit of Ryzom.
And in some places it's impossible to go around the flagged area if you want to get somewhere, as some outposts guard the only approaches to specific resource areas (or spawn points).
In other cases, there's exc mats to be dug that exist only inside the flag area for opwars. By doing as you suggest, those would become inaccessible unless you open yourself to ganking.

#29 Added by Iala(arispotle) 1 decade ago [en]

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Marelli

Aniya
(I really doubt that anyone can make more of a difference by soaking up the opposing side's heals than by contributing whatever healing they can to their own side.)
Well, there's definitely no way me soaking up 1/6th of a healbomb does more damage to the enemy side than me tagging up and joining the fight, but for a level 1 character it's another matter. I must note however, that healsoaking would also be solved if those damn bombs would simply chose the most injured people in the radius to bounce to, rather than the most healthy people as they seem to do now :P

Better solution would be for the heal bomb to bounce only on teammates (I think it does this already, but I may be mistaken) and make it impossible for people in the same team to be flagged differently.

#30 Added by Nonea 1 decade ago [en]

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Loryen

I am still uncertain why we need to maintain a "neutral" in a battle ground?.

And I don't understand why you insist that people can't be neutral. I don't PVP, except the very rare duel, so I never want to be force tagged (although I realize there are places that do this now, I don't want to add to them.) If I'm in an OP area, it's because I'm passing through, watching, digging, or because I don't know it's an OP area. Just to repeat, I do not PVP except for very rare duels.

I like the ghost option, especially as a default. Perhaps ghosts should have to exit the OP zone to tag, as well, especially if they can't be seen and don't show up on the radar of tagged people so they can't sneak up on others that way.

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IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Remove Neutral Option from OP Battles