IDEAS FOR RYZOM

Daomei,

Your solution to use the occupations to make catalysts does not make any sense as stated previously. You are better off not making cats at all, and instead using the time to level the skill, in fact if you take into account the timer required to grind occupations to a point of producing q250 cats, it makes no sense at all. I really do not understand why you keep saying that occupations are a real alternative when they are clearly not. You keep bringing it up but the math does not pan out. If you want to refute this, please post a very detailed analysis of grind times on occupations for production of cats, as well as an estimate of the timer required to grind the occupation levels to mastery.


Furthermore your claim that OP cats are "free" is nonsense. Aside from the dapper cost, it take a good amount of coordination and resources in the form of time, weapons, and mastery of combat skills by many players to take and hold an outpost. I am sorry that on aniro new guilds have no chance at attaining one, but that should not be a reason to punish the rest of the population by making outposts irrelevant.

I'm sure the folks on Anrio are pretty much the same as folks on any server in any game. Open a dialog, create alliances and indulge in diplomacy and the doors to new ventures begin to open.

All things can be achieve given the right mix of time, effort and honesty

I beg your pardon, but you are talking rubbish about something you obviously haven't tried and don't understand. I have all basic occupations complete (grade 6) which took me - as a beginner who still made many mistakes and hadn't all recipes at 100% - bit more than 3 mths of time and always small portions of my playtime (Granted, finishing all kitin lair occupations was hard at times, but was thrill and fun as well). Using 100% recipes, it takes 39 days to complete an occupation from start to grade 6 (needed for q250 cats), and you can do 3 occupations at a time without any hassle, 4 with a bit of changing every day, and at maximum4.5 on average (one day 4, next day 5, or one day 6, next day 3).

Average time to obtain a set (2x4 certs) for producing occupation products takes between 6 and 15 minutes for the non kitin lair occupations. For kitin lair occupations, it widely differs between around 5 minutes for medic, and up to half an hour for larvester (which is worst of all and I don't recommend to use it for cat production at all). All that is without optimizations such as acting in bigger teams, using mount for magnetic cartographer etc. which can bring down production time further. Note that kitin lair products count double for cat production, you need only 9 instead of 18 as a component to obtain nexus crystals.

I estimate that cat production takes about 10% of my overall playtime when I am doing it alongside my normal play which involves much digging, crafting, training of melee and magic, boss hunts, and roleplay. That way I get an average of 1000-1800 cats (q250) a day. I am fine with under normal conditions. At times when I am doing tasks involving insatiable hunger for cats (such as when I finished light armor doing up to 15 lvls a day) I have to increase effort, involving my alt etc., and even continue without when running out of cats.

You misunderstood me. As far as my way of expressing myself is responsible, I apologize. I know very well, and already mentioned before, that winning and holding an op is quite a lot of effort, and that it is fully ok that the holders get a reward in cats and mats. When I am talking about cats for free that refers to the situation before patch 1.12 when cats were available so abundantly that they were useful but worthless and given to anybody for free.

I am in no way opposed to outposts contributing to cats supply, only I am opposed to a monopoly of outpost holders as well as to a plethora of op produced cats rendering all other methods worthless.

In almost all MMO's there is something that is won or lost by PvP and whatever it is, be it a city, stronghold, outpost or mine that grants the victors a benefit making that benefit available to the masses without having to take part in the PvP makes that entity almost worthless.

Boosting personal production beyond a stack or two a day would belittle the outposts and the efforts guilds take to ensure their security, the time and gear spent defending them is huge including damage to PvP quality HA/Jewels and the amount of resources spent fueling Ranged fighters.

The Rareness of these items both cats & mats makes them more special increasing them deminishes all of them.

Their is nothing wrong with levelling without cats, folks should focus on the journey and worry less about the destination, levels will come in time and Ryzom has proven notouriously hard to kill she'll be here.

Well I certainly do. I completed all of the Basic Occs but w/o the benefit of being handed 100% occ recipes simply because when I did the occs, no one else had done most of them. Had help w/ 1st 2 or 3 but then interest waned and was a solo effort for most part. Butcher was a PITA doing solo.

For the non spoon fed, it takes a lot longer than the time you describe. But it was fun figuring them out so I didn't see it as a time investment issue. I very much enjoyed the basic occs... adv occs ... not so much.

On the other hand, using your own words about how long it takes to make 1500 cats, the fact remains if I simply grind a skill for that time, I'm getting more XP. When It takes longer to make the cats than it does to use them, it's a negative sum game.

I am, to some extent, a non spoon fed, too. I figured out the first three occupations before advancing was blocked for months. My best riddle solution was 93% anyway, never achieved a better one on my own.

Yet, when advanced professions came, efficiency became an issue. Thus, I took help from friends, some guilds concentrating on occupations (not for free), and spoiler sites as far as available. In the meantime, solutions are widely known and aren't an issue. Still I suggest to anybody starting occupations to experience the fun of recipe riddles. Though I was not extremely successful, I enjoyed it.


You possibly misread me. I make 2-5 stacks a day (granted that 5 is together with my alt on the second sub) with an effort of about 1-1.5hr a day, all component farming included, in a relaxed way. I am speaking of q250. This spells 20-30 minutes per stack. (I may explain that in more depth if anybody is interested)

One stack is worth 100k xp, that's simple calculus. When I am in the final 10 or 20 levels, or leading edge in any crafting, I get an average of bit more than 100xp/mat. That means, digging 100k xp means digging 1000 mat, roughly. I am not a super digger who possibly yields 900 mats an hour, rather I am happy when considerably exceeding 600. Actually, 2000 in 3 hrs is a good result for me, often I get less when there is agro or I simply have tough luck with the sources.

Crafting is not done in zero time. I have to collect the harvest, place it on my beasts, undress, wield tool, and start crafting. Later I have to get rid of the products, normally by selling, as I detest build and drop. That means, that an additional half an hour at least is spent by crafting.

Thus, one stack saves me about 1.75hr (double result of 1.5hr digging plus half of .5hr crafting time) at the expense of 20-30 minutes to obtain one stack. Not bad for me.

Granted, yield is ways lower for q200 and q150 (few left at 150 for me). Yet I usually barter q250 cats against q200 at a rate of 3:5 and against q150 at a rate of 2:5 which widely makes up for the difference. I seldom use cats when overcrafting because that's waste, only when I'm in a hurry.

I don't use alts or spoiler web sites and the latter didnt exist at the time as we were "blazing the trail". Don't think of them as riddles ..... trial and error to start and then process of elimination and algebra from there. Where I gotta fault ya logic in the 1st instances is you are discounting the alt's time..... your adv occ time has to be counted twice. You are having two toons work for the sole benefit one one.

As for the XP gained from cats, 999 x 100 = 99,900 is not exactly higher rmathematics. Its not claculus, just simple arithmetic. My 2nd problem is the overcomplication of the digging / crafting process. I have mastered all 5 lands and can dig anything in any one of the 4 racial lands and avoid aggro 99.5% of the time. As for crafting, the extra steps you list are virtaully timeless. I dig 4 bags, 3 go on my packer. Those 3 transfers take 0 time as it's done while digging.....cont'd.

Once me and packer all full (1340-ish mats), there's that cupla 100m run to the hawker. ...and yes there's always one close by in 250 zones. While me and packer are runing, the jools/armor come off, tool gets loaded, actions, inventory and craft windows get opened, slots filled w/ mats and start crafting away as soon a standing in front of hawker. Take about 2.25 minutes w/ HA vests and 9 minutes w/ jools.

When bag gets full, crafts get sold to hawker. Adjusting for your 2k mats .....it should only take 3.5 minutes w/ HA vests and 13.5 minutes with jools or anywhere from 12% and 45% of that half hour you estimated depending on what ya crafting.

Your choice, and a respectable one. Yet, once advanced occupations are an issue, it is more that recommended to use 100% recipes, no matter how one gained them. Most guilds have them, anyway, so there is no need for spoiler sites. Btw. I consider riddles a logical and mathematical challenge - most of them allow for a formal way of solution.

And no, I am not discounting the alt's time. I am calculating 2-2.5 stacks for me in roughly an hour when I am out with my alt and we are gaining the equivalent of 4-5k crystals. Would I go alone, it would take longer and/or yield less result. Were we in a larger group, yield could be optimized even more, especially in kitin lair.

Mind I mentioned 20-30 minutes per stack (more exactly, 24-30 minutes), this refers to a single char, not two.


I am not completely done yet with all countries thus have to take regions as they are, this will improve in the future. Anyway, when digging alone, I hardly harvest more than 500-600 mats/hr. When I have my alt taking care, it is more, and less stressful, but here again, two chars are involved, not one, so the yield would have to be divided by two.

You are calculating optimum values under optimum assumptions assuming conveyor belt style drop-leveling. Not that this is not possible, but it is not always realistic and definitely no fun. At last with me, interruptions practically always lead to additional delay because other issues pop up once one switches back to home apartment or stable.

But even if you assume only 5-15 minutes for building and being back for digging, digging 1500mats alone is a matter of hours. And still, using cats, produced in less than half an hour per stack, double the xp yield or, in other words, cut the time to gain xp to half. I fail to see that you are anywhere close to yield 100k xp in 20-30 minutes by simply digging/crafting or fighting etc.

Anyway, I am not challenging the way you or others are doing your jobs, have fun with and be happy. But I contradict the notion that there is no advantage from obtaining cats through advanced occupations.

I'm very disappointed in the existence of spoilers .... "It's the journey grasshopper, not the destination". Those of us who "blazed that trail" mutually agreed not to create spoilers as it destroys the fun of the game. We don't even post 100% recipes on our own guild site for that reason. If you want to experience all the "challenge" and "fun" the that's there to be had in any game, then cheat codes, alts, spoilers should not be part of your tool set.

As for the 20-30 minutes per task, again not possible with a single character since you can't do more than 3 occupations at a time and have the 2 day cool down in between. At best, playing as a single toon, you need 4 days to complete production. To get all 8 slots filled ....7 days.

And where did the "drop leveling" come from ?.... Craft / Sell when standing in front of a hawker means 0 drops. You'll have to explain to me how standing in front of a hawker is not realistic or any "less fun" than crafting in front of a stable or wherever your selling your crafts. Every 250 region has a hawker very close to where the mats are ..... I have not found a case where I can't find one in a OP, safe camp or non-aggro area. I don't seem to get the interruptions you speak of when you are at apartment or stable.

I also find it quite contradictory when you say working efficiently (as in changing clothes while running) "spoils the fun" of the game, while you have no problem at all using "spoilers" as well as an alt to bypass that "fun" in order to gain a "cat production advantage". That contradiction exists in your 1st paragraph where you have sacrificed the fun of the "logical and mathematical challenge" so you can get the "cat production advantage" of 100% recipes with a "no matter how you get them" approach. Digging in the Egg Room is a challenge and requires the development of skill when you are alone ..... when ya have an alt hiding in the corner, not so much. Where's the "challenge" and the "fun" when there's no risk involved ?

As for fighting, working jabs, kinch or jugs....until ya get to 240ish and need plods, your getting way more XP per hour if ya selecting the proper mob for ya level.

100,000 XP / 30 minutes = 3,333 XP per minute .... a rather paltry production IMO.

I'm not saying that "there is no advantage from obtaining cats through advanced occupations." I see a clear advantage when doing them in groups or as a guild effort. But as to being worth the investment for a single player .... single being defined as no outside help from other accounts, alts, spoilers, etc., the math just doesn't work and it's not a real option for unaligned players or small guilds looking to enjoy all the game has to offer without "cheats".

Assuming, of course, that you have a good group to grind with, which can be hard sometimes unless you've got a good guild or friends. But, if you do, then you should assume you're doing the occs with an equally good group.

When we talk about "groups" doing occs ....

Moe is doing Occs A,B & C
Larry is doing Occs D, E & F
Curly is doing Occs G, H & A
Shemp is ding B, C & D
Groucho is doing E, F & G
Chico is doing H, A & B
Harpo is doing C, D & E
Zeppo is doing F, G and H

While ya pooling ya resources collected, you are not really "grouping" as your doing ya thing in different regions.

I cannot but tell that a bit hypocritic. I am playing the game since 16 mths now, not since 6 oder 7 years like some, and I want to experience it in broadth and depth. I am not taking simple solutions easily. But I am not sure whether I have the seven years to experience Atys like you possibly had. I am usually not using spoilers from the Web, except the hints for mat locations, but I do not refuse exchanging information with others.

Similar with having an alt. I originally used the second account only to have a permanent char on Silan and to do some experiments (and to support Winch to make the game survive). Unfortunately, our server is not the best populated at all, and hadn't I used my alt in cases when I could not get a healer, caretaker or level group (I still prefer to play with others, of course), it would have taken eternally to reach an acceptable level in off ele or melee, abilities which are a prerequisite for a neutral player like me to reach all locations I want to.

Beneath, playing with an alt is matter of taste, and I do not think that we should patronize one another.

I did not take the light ways. I refused from the very beginning to take dappers from anybody, I did no source throwing for others (where some were constantly begging for), and I completed my first digging region (desert) without any outside help, neither from my alt nor anybody else. Right now, when I "waste time", I prefer to "waste" it in RP, events, and e.g. guiding younger players through touring the camps, showing kitin lair and PR.


Again, I spoke about 20-30 minutes to obtain one stack of cats (q250) per character. This is, in the first place, independent from the question which maximum one may obtain on a per day basis.

One production (2x4certs) yields 18 products at 100%. That is worth while 1 unit for obtaining nexus crystals if it is a non kitin lair occupation, else 2 units. To exchange products, one needs units from 4 occs at minimum, with bonus crystals for more than 4. It is easily possible to do 4 occs a day when dropping one after producing and taking the next one. The maximum occs that can be possibly done per day is 4.5 on average, either 6,3 or 5,4 in turn. I rarely did that, because it means more stress than fun, it is possible anyway.

Once one has amassed sufficient products, they may be exchanged at any time at the faction dealer into nexus crystals, no tool, campfire etc. necessary until starting producing cats. Nexus crystals are the pre-product for cats, converted into cats at 1:1 if catalyst artificer skill is sufficient (otherwise losses are possible).

When exchanging, the poach (crafted before and ever used without wearing out) counts for 300 nexus crystals, as much as any product unit. There are bonuses when exchanging products from more than 4 occs at a time as following:

# crystals
units bonus total per unit
------------------------------------
4 | ---- | 1500 | 375
5 |180 | 1980 | 396
6 |315 | 2415 | 402
7 |600 | 3000 | 428
8 |810 | 3510 | 438
------------------------------------

I am usually exchanging 6 or 7, seldom 5 and seldom 8 different products, as a rule of thumb, I calculate 400 crystals per unit (it is actually bit more). 3 kitin lair occs are worth 6 units, i.e. 2400 crystals, with 2 kitin lair occs and one non lair it is 5 units and so on. I frequently do 4 occs a day, but leave that out here and then not to overdo. My average yield per day is around 1600 and 2000 crystals per character. I usually need less than an hour to collect the certs, and to practise occs. Often, I combine that with other activities in the regions in question (granted, in the lair is not so much, except hunting Kizokoo ;) ).
Where I was digging last weeks, I had to look out for my old friend Dai-den, even if a hawker is close by (not always), and I have no beast in the region. Same goes for PR etc.

But again, I don't think that it is useful to impose the own style of playing to one another. I would like much more to do more leveling, occs etc. together with others, but it is not possible all time.

It is my home stable where my beasts are, where my friends are looking around. I told about my fun, not yours, about my way to master digging (now nearly done) which sends me to regions where I have no packer. I shall surely consider your advice as I have a lot left to do, and hopefully will become a better digger in the future.


Digging in the egg room is thrilling in the beginning, if you are doing it for fun, not just for achievements. No matter if a friend or an alt is waiting or acting in another part, or if you're there in a group sufficiently powerful to kick ass of the patrols, it is easier and yields better results. My alt is involved in roleplay, not just a service robot, and it takes some care and time to develop the character of my younger sister and to present her in roleplay accordingly. It is not just using shortcuts carelessly. I did mention, btw. that I obtained solutions mainly from friends and guilds who held them, and not for free. I did things for them like showing younger or inexperienced players how to act in the lair, digged q250 mat and so on. That is cooperation and absolutely legitimate. And, again, it is my way to play as an independent player without a powerful guild or alliance and without a cult and the easy porters to PR and 250s.

I did not succeed so far in killing kinchers 1 a minute or even faster by daggers or 1hand sword (my master and closest to master melee weapons so far). I trained on cuttlers for a long time, most time naked not to spoil my light armor and jewels. That is interesting even with a healer (and hard without). Agreed that with good prey, fighting leveling may be nearly as fast as the benefit from cats. Yet, that is only true for levels beyond 200. I barter q250 cats to q200 at 3:5 and (as far as I have left any need, there) to q150 at 2:5.

Even with your in my opinion unfair and patronizing vilifying of playing with an alt (not with a crowd of macro-steered f2p robots where I understand the objections) I cannot but disagree. Beneath that the math does work, fun does as well. Doing the basic professions on a regular base sends me through the realms and the lair on a regular base, that is definitely more funny than standing another hour in front of the same hawker or slaying the same spawn for the fortysecond time and gives me a lot of opportunities to observe, meet people and so on. And even if the math could not beat the performance of a 6 or 7 years playing, in most skills outleveled regular, it is good for a just starting humble neutral Tryker girl to practise and improve her abilities and to learn more about the world of Atys.

yeah i vote for more cats. In fact, i think it should rain cats upcomming fall.

In my opinion, lowering cat production isn't a great motivator to get guilds fighting over OPs. It kinda just makes OPs worthless. The only thing to really fight over is the mats produced.

And we used to be able to share cats with allied smaller guilds. Now the only way to get them is to join a big guild that has OPs. There's hardly enough to trade around.

I'm not sure how much more fighting the Devs want, but they should know that the sides are never going to be close to balance enough for OPs to go back and forth. One side will always be more powerful, and have the option to take all OPs if they wanted to which would be very bad for the health of the server.