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REport and log of RF meeting (Pocket Worlds) - 15th of december 2014 - RYZOM FORGE - Ryzom Community ForumHomeGuest


REport and log of RF meeting (Pocket Worlds) - 15th of december 2014

Log of the meeting
Lof de la réunion

<Tamarea> I'll talk about the "Pocket Worlds" to explain you what it is, then Goki will answer your questions.
<Tamarea> Je vais vous parler des "Pocket Worlds" pour vous expliquer ce que c'est, puis Goki répondra à vos questions.

<Tamarea> The dev team is working on creating a tool which could be compared to a Ring 2, more efficient on several points than the old Ring and whose scenarios will be hosted server side, which will allow a scenario to be run even if its creator isn't on line.
<Tamarea> L'équipe de développement travaille à la création d'un outil qui pourrait être comparé à un Ring 2, plus performant sur de nombreux points que l'ancien Ring et dont les scénarii seront hébergés côté serveur, ce qui permettra à un scénario de tourner même si son créateur n'est pas en ligne.

<Kaetemi> ring scenarios are hosted server side :|

<Tamarea> For those who have not known Ryzom Ring; Ryzom Ring allowed the players to create and animate their own role play scenarios within Ryzoms universe, on maps accessible to everyone through a unique entry point: the Ring terminals. Ring was runing on a separate server and the scenarios were hosted client side, meaning that a scenario could only be opened if its creator was on line. The Ring has been closed shortly before the servers merge for economical reasons, but it was deeply missed by many players and we have tried to revive it as much as we could.
<Tamarea> Pour ceux qui n'ont pas connu Ryzom Ring: Ryzom Ring permettait aux joueurs de créer et d'animer leurs propres scénarios de jeu de rôle dans l'univers de Ryzom, sur des cartes accessibles à tous par un point d'entrée unique : les bornes Ring. Ryzom Ring tournait sur un serveur à part et les scénarii étaient hébergés côté client, si bien qu'un scénario n'était ouvert que si son créateur était en ligne. Le Ring a été fermé peu avant la fusion des serveurs pour raisons économiques, mais de nombreux joueurs le regrettaient et nous avons tenté de le ressusciter dans la mesure du possible.

<Tamarea> Each player will be able to launch his/her own instance of scenario and invite whoever they want: that's the reason why it has quickly been known as "Pocket Worlds".
<Tamarea> Chaque joueur pourra lancer sa propre instance du scénario et inviter qui il le souhaite : raison pour laquelle son surnom est vite devenu "Pocket Worlds".

<Tamarea> For this, it is using the instances system that already exists on Ryzom, and which is used for the apartments and guild halls.
<Tamarea> Pour cela, le Dev s'appuie sur le système d'instances existant sur Ryzom, et qui est utilisé pour les appartements et halls de guilde.

<Tamarea> Once extended, this system allows access to a double of some part of Atys (continent or island), empty of any NPC or mob. The foraging spots, however, are strictly the same ones and so, digging won't be available.
<Tamarea> Une fois étendu, ce système permet d'accéder à un double d'une partie Atys (continent ou île), vide de PNJ et de mobs. Les spots de forage sont quant à eux strictement les mêmes : de ce fait, le forage sera bloqué.

<Tamarea> The Ring maps ( http://r2-maps.bmsite.net/# ) are accessible and it was possible to activate AI there.
 <Tamarea> Les cartes du Ring ( http://r2-maps.bmsite.net/# ) sont accessibles et l'IA a pu y être activée.

<Tamarea> It is possible to pop NPC, creatures and objects in a Pocket World. Popped entities exist only in this one: it is hence possible for another player to use the same map in another scenario without this one being affected by the things created in the first scenario.
<Tamarea> [FR] Il est possible de poper des PNJ, créatures et objets dans un Pocket World. Les pops n'existent alors que dans celui-ci : un autre joueur peut donc utiliser la même carte dans un autre scénario sans que celle-ci ne soit affectée par les pops du premier scénario.

<Tamarea> However, it is not possible to add mats on an instance, because this one would exist in all other scenarios using the same map. (Anyhow, as said above, digging will be deactivated.)
<Tamarea> Par contre, il n'est pas possible d'ajouter des MP sur une instance car celles-ci existeraient dans tous les scénarii utilisant la même carte. (De toute manière, comme dit plus haut, le forage sera désactivé.)

<Tamarea> The Ryzom Arkitect tool (previously known as ARCC) can be used in the Pocket Worlds: every player wishing to create a scenario in a Pocket World will hence be able to do it.
<Tamarea> L'outil Ryzom Arkitect (anciennement ARCC) est utilisable dans les Pocket Worlds : tout joueur souhaitant créer un scénario dans un Pocket World pourra donc le faire.

<Tamarea> Experience points, loot, digging and death penalties will be deactivated by defaut, in order to avoid possible abuses. In the other hand, it will be possible to active them (except for digging) in an official Pocket World.
<Tamarea> Les points d'expérience, le loot, le forage et les pénalités de décès seront désactivés par défaut, afin d'éviter de possibles abus. Par contre, ils pourront être activés, sauf forage, dans un Pocket Word officiel.

<Tamarea> It is hence possible to create whatever you wish on a map of the game (except for the mats) and to open it to all players easily. It may be a formidable springboard for the creation of a new zone by Ryzom Forge!
<Tamarea> Il est donc possible de créer ce que l'on veut sur une carte du jeu (sauf les MP) et d'y faire accéder tous les joueurs facilement. Ceci peut être un formidable tremplin pour la création d'une nouvelle zone par Ryzom Forge !

<Tamarea> I give the floor to Goki, to add explanations or to answer your questions.
 <Tamarea> Je laisse la parole à Goki, pour ajouter des explications ou répondre à vos questions.

<Goki_ET> *waits a moment for everyone to read that*
<Kaetemi> *tumbleweed*
<Goki_ET> Does anyone have any questions?
<Kaetemi> I just want to comment that Ring scenarios are hosted server-side.
<Goki_ET> Yes, that is correct.
<Glorf> why not using the ring ?
<Kaetemi> Because the Ring isn't written in PHP. *ba-dum-tshhh*
<Kaetemi> ok i'll shut up now ;)
<sfb_> My hunch is that's not far from the truth, but not so directly. Not many people understand the Ring technology.
<sfb_> It's easier to just re-invent the wheel in a language you're comfortable with.
<wildm4n> c'est un projet qui existera dans cadre de ryzom forge ou c'est un ajout en plus de ryzom forge ?
<Glorf> do we have an ETA on this feature ? :-P
<Shepeng> It seems very interesting, how can we train to use the tools ? The same as on the yubo server ?
<Goki_ET> A difficult question for me to answer really, this approach is the one that has been chosen, for various reasons.
<Goki_ET> It is testable already on yubo with Ark
<Goki_ET> but
<Goki_ET> only the "pieces of the puzzle"
<Goki_ET> it is not yet put together as a complete player-ready feature yet.
<marceline> ok, i like the idea but it's way over my head and i'm hungry. take care all.
<Shepeng> when it'll be complete, if I make a story, how can I validate that it is compliant with the lore ?
<sfb_> The same way you make sure your Harry Potter Fanfic is consistent with the books.
<SIELA1915> when will this be implemented?
<Shepeng> not possible, we don't know so much of the lore
<sfb_> So then the answer is that you can't I assume.
<Goki_ET> it depends on the context, but in most cases, would be the same as how ring scenarios were treated.
<sfb_> Are you planning on using the instancing system in GPMS to provide instanced dungeons within the live game?
<wiedii> JK Rowling est toute seule, et les fanfics sont des milliers. On est pas sur les mêmes chiffres, je pense qu'on peut se débrouiller :)
<sfb_> ARCC just replaces the Mission Editor component of the World Editor, has it been expanded to replace the primivites system as well? Is there a plan to do so?
<wiedii> (and sorry for french.. je réponds à la volée parce que ça, ça me concerne un peu ^^)
<sfb_> And how do you plan on handling or curating foreign artistic content?
<Goki_ET> sfb_ There are no plans for such a thing, and even so, it would have to be *very* carefully considered. The thought has occured, but only in the way of "Cool we could do all these different things"

<sfb_> Goki_ET: Which one of the things was that in response to? All of them?
<Goki_ET> "instanced dungeons"
<sfb_> Gotcha.
<Goki_ET> Ark has for the most part replaced the Mission editor, simply because it allows much greater speed in creating new content without requiring constant patches, wich can be problematic.
<Kaetemi> Also, I can model+paint new zone tiles for just 40 EUR per square 160m
<Kaetemi> really you only need a few zone tiles and you can push out an entire new unique looking zone using the ligo transitions system
<wiedii> but anybody know how integrate them in game, I think :/
<Kaetemi> umm
<Kaetemi> easy
<Kaetemi> run em through the pipline
<Kaetemi> OHHHH
<Kaetemi> :p
<SIELA1915> when will this be implemented?
<Kaetemi> :D
<wiedii> yep, but is the pipleline working ?
<sfb_> wiedii: If you set it up right, yes.
<Kaetemi> it sure seems to be http://dl.kaetemi.be/polyverse/screenshot153.png
<wiedii> (pas sur de comprendre ta réponse sfd_ .. mon anglais bute)
<Goki_ET> Well, thats why Forge is here, and that type of addition to Ryzom is a long term goal.
<Glorf> ça marche
<Kaetemi> i have pretty much the entire live ryzom pipeline setup ready to go as well, but hey, no freebies :P
<sfb_> It's a lot of work.
<sfb_> Throw the man a bone, Winch Gate.
<Goki_ET> "When will this be implemented?" If you mean, released on atys to all players: No ETA yet.
<SIELA1915_> Ok thx goki
<Kaetemi> q4 2015
<Goki_ET> the required components are active on Yubo however.
<Glorf> the edition will be using ark only?
<Glorf> or will there be something like in the ring ?
<Goki_ET> A ring-like interface is unlikley to make a return in any short amount of time.
<Goki_ET> It will be Ark only.
<Glorf> so you truely believe player are going to create this pocket world with ark ? Oo
<Glorf> i mean, a vast majority of the player aren't programmer at all, so they won't be able to use it
<Goki_ET> Ark still has a lot of work to be done on it too.
<Glorf> why not work with ryzomcore then and ask some of them who know well the ryzom code (kaetemi for example) to work on making the ring work on linux/mac (work for money i mean)
<sfb_> Ring was the right interface for players.
<sfb_> Interactive, near real time.
<Kaetemi> Ring code needs to be ported from lua 5.1 to 5.2 still.
<Glorf> well, winchgate client is using lua 5.1 anyway :|
<Kaetemi> well, latest repository is using 5.2
<Glorf> yes :p but it shouldn't be that long, no ? i mean all the other lua code was ported
<Kaetemi> i have no plans for further supporting 5.1 in the client
<Kaetemi> umm there's some weird hack going on with container resizing that needs to be fixed
<Kaetemi> and it crashes, like, when you close a path for example :|
<Kaetemi> and linux is pretty much on lua 5.2 by default, so ;)
<Glorf> yep
<Goki_ET> Glorf, I dont know. I can't answer that.
<Kaetemi> basically the ring code needs a bit less than a week of maintenance work and it should be ready for production again
<Glorf> still doesn't answer why you would re-invent the wheel with a non-usable interface :|
<Kaetemi> winch gate would put it like this "it's broken beyond repair, let's make a php app"
<Kaetemi> but seriously, just a bit under a week of maintainance work. i know. i had a running ring server with lua 5.2 based client a couple weeks back.
<Kaetemi> the only downside is that some portion of the landscape data for ring i got from winch gate is from pre-alpha, and another part of it is simply missing, and they say that's all they have.
<Kaetemi> good job losing half of the data
<Goki_ET> Does anyone have any more questions?
<Yenno> I don't know if it's the right place or even if I am allowed to but .. When do we have a new region / npc boss ?
<Kaetemi> 2018
<dfighter> 2118 you mean
<Kaetemi> that's not very realistic
<dfighter> too soon?
<Tamarea> If you have other questions about the Pocket Worlds, Ulukyn is here to asnwer you.
<Tamarea> Si vous avez d'autres questions sur les Pocket Worlds, Ulukyn est ici pour vous répondre.
<Glorf> so, it is the new priority on ryzom, before mara faction ?
<ulukyn> ?
<ulukyn> Just some precision, we don't work on Ring v2 or something like that
<ulukyn> We just use the room instances, and only that
<Glorf> <Tamarea> The dev team is working on creating a tool which could be compared to a Ring 2<<
<wildm4n> gg Glorf
<ulukyn> Yes, it's wrong.
<ulukyn> Mistake when i have explain it to Tam
<wildm4n> so, what is the official info then ?
 <ulukyn> The tool is ARK, we don't will create another tool lol
<ulukyn> Just add some modules to ARK to teleport a player in a Pocket World
<ulukyn> Ark + Room instance is like a Ring, but not the Ring
<wildm4n> could appartments be used for playing scenarios ?
<ulukyn> sure
<ulukyn> but appartments can be a city
<ulukyn> an island
<ulukyn> or a whole region
<wildm4n> what do you mean ?
<ulukyn> When you enter in your appartement you are teleported in the Rooms Zone
<Kaetemi> the Indoors continent
<ulukyn> yes
<Kaetemi> more accuracy is needed in this chat
<ulukyn> but if we change the destination, the player are in a room in another place (pyr, zora, ring island)
<ulukyn> empty of any NPC, mob, etc...
<wildm4n> so we could play in a copy of a city ?
<ulukyn> yes but an empty copy
<ulukyn> Now, if the destinaton is ring islands, you can start an ARK script
<ulukyn> who will spawn entities
<ulukyn> mobs, npcs, etc...
<wildm4n> only for ring islands ?
<ulukyn> but only for your instance
<ulukyn> no, any place in Atys works
 <wildm4n> will we be free to choose ?
<ulukyn> Why not
<ulukyn> In a firts time, will be used by Event team
<wildm4n> it will not be accessible to the players ?
<ulukyn> Later
<wildm4n> are many persons working on this module at the moment ?
<ulukyn> Only one, me
<wildm4n> why was Goki_ET was meant to answer our questions then ?
<ulukyn> Goki will use the module
<ulukyn> So he know how works
<wildm4n> do you think it has potential ?
<ulukyn> Goki have imagination ;)
<wildm4n> so he's actually working on it too, right ?
<ulukyn> Just thinking about possibilities
<ulukyn> Module is not finished yet
<ulukyn> But Powos can be used without ark, for example, you can imagine guilds islands
<ulukyn> it's like the GH but in a whole island
<ulukyn> and guildies can place Ryzhome stuff
<wildm4n> ok
<ulukyn> The only change we refuse to do it's move any current gameplay to powos. Like Kings boss
<wildm4n> will there be an official communication on the website about that ?
<ulukyn> A little soon for that, but yes, we will
<wildm4n> what will happen with ryzomforge meanwhile ?
<wildm4n> is this development linked with RF?
<ulukyn> ARK is closed source
<ulukyn> but the changes made in server code will be released
<ulukyn> so, it's just some changes to be able to spawn entities in room instances
<Kaetemi> as long as those changes don't require ark
<ulukyn> ark it's just an web interface who send a webExecCommand command to egs
<Kaetemi> is webExecCommand documented?
<Kaetemi> can it be used by something that's not ark?
<ulukyn> sure
<ulukyn> i can document it
<ulukyn> ARK is more like a project manager
<Kaetemi> also, how secure is webExecCommand from exploits?
<Kaetemi> like fake urls in the web apps etc
<ulukyn> more than passwords :D
<ulukyn> i know
<ulukyn> webExecCommand use hash_hmac
<ulukyn> with sha1
<Kaetemi> ok but any security concerns with this command would be purely with the web apps, and what are the risks with using this command?
<ulukyn> what do you mean?
<ulukyn> what type of risks ?
<Kaetemi> well, since this command can be called by web pages to do anything
<TychoBrahe> Kaetemi | ryzomcore branch has sha512 support :p <-- this is a completely different subject
<Kaetemi> :P
<ulukyn> it's very powerfull
<ulukyn> like /a commands
<Kaetemi> yes
<Kaetemi> what measures have to be taken in those web pages for not being exploitable
<ulukyn> when web app send a command to egs, the command have a checksum
<ulukyn> the checksum it's a hmac hash
<Kaetemi> ok what does that checksum protect specifically?
<ulukyn> the trust of the command
<Kaetemi> ok
<ulukyn> you need know the SALT of egs and also the timestamp of your connexion
<Kaetemi> ok
<ulukyn> egs can send an url to client with a response
<ulukyn> the response use same checksum system
<Kaetemi> ok
<ulukyn> the last proctection is an url id who increase each call
<ulukyn> so, you can't send the same webExecCommand command twice
<Kaetemi> alright
<Kaetemi> code has stuff like: c->sendUrl(web_app_url+"&player_eid="+c->getI d().toString()+"&event=failed&desc=cant_add_item&quo t;, getSalt());
<Kaetemi> does that mean we need to write web pages with that url format
<Kaetemi> if we want to use this?
<ulukyn> yes
<ulukyn> sendUrl send the url to client, client open the web ingame browser
<ulukyn> so, url format need be the webig format
<Kaetemi> is all the string processing in this function not heavy on the EGS, it very much being the shard's central bottleneck and all?
<ulukyn> No, the main problem is more the web server
<ulukyn> and it's not the egs who send the url, it's the IOS service
<ulukyn> so, we need clean the IOS string cache each 6 months
<ulukyn> but not a real problem
<Kaetemi> ok but I mean all the string concatenation and splitting and stuff, it's very thrashing on the ram
<ulukyn> actually we use ARK for teleportations in citys, and marauder. No real problem
<Kaetemi> nevrax team took very much care to use integer ids everywhere where possible in client and server
<Kaetemi> yeah but ryzom live server gives 'please wait' every few minutes last time i played :/
<ulukyn> maybe the log parser
<Kaetemi> mm i got lgs and backup running on two separate boxes in my setup :)
<ulukyn> i have made some improvements on it
<ulukyn> actually the egs have allways memory leaks
<ulukyn> but not more than before
<Kaetemi> ok
<ulukyn> Kaetemi: what about the patcher on MacOs system?
<Kaetemi> i don't have a mac :|
<ulukyn> we use a very odd patchlet system (files are downloaded with webig on user/ folder and player restart the client)
<Kaetemi> yea i know, that stuff is a terrible hack
<ulukyn> yep
<ulukyn> in all cases it's only to update stuff on gamedev.bnp
<Kaetemi> in my own setup i just have the build pipeline linked with my patch server using bittorrent sync, so i just run the main build command; wait for it to finish; run the patch generate command; wait for it to finish; and increase the patch number on the server :p
<ulukyn> yes, works nice for windows clients
<Kaetemi> supposedly patching works on linux too, haven't tried yet though
<Kaetemi> should probably be fairly trivial if that has any issues still
<ulukyn> when all OS are supported by patcher i will remove my pacthlet system...
<Kaetemi> well find someone with a mac :P
<ulukyn> yep :)
<Kaetemi> buy me one and i fix it :|
<dfighter> hackintosh in a vm
<Kaetemi> shh
<Kaetemi> also i run amd
<Kaetemi> hackintosh doesn't run amd
<dfighter> :(
<ulukyn> dfighter: very nice the new Ryzom Core Studio :)
<ulukyn> i like it
<dfighter> not so new
<dfighter> but it's almost ready to replace the MFC tools :)
<ulukyn> i know, but i'm on Linux and have worked with some wine version (or maybe change of distrib)
<ulukyn> dfighter: On WorlEditor i can select an entity (npc, zone, etc..) and center the view on it, something in dev or i miss the button?
<dfighter> that plugin was done by dnk not me
<dfighter> but I'm sure such a feature can be implemented :)
<ulukyn> it's the most used feature :p
<Kaetemi> ulukyn: did you see yet what we're working on? http://dl.kaetemi.be/polyverse/screenshot157.png :)
<ulukyn> outch, very nice :)
<ulukyn> using the new interface system?
<Kaetemi> new?
<ulukyn> a complete rewrite of interface_v3, no?
<Kaetemi> that's not a rewrite
<ulukyn> ah?
<Kaetemi> interface was refactored into NLGUI
<ulukyn> ah ok
<Kaetemi> but did have to do some fixes to gui code to get these correctly working :p
<Kaetemi> and added text outlines, much nicer than shadows
<ulukyn> yes, it is


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