ROLEPLAY

3. Theocratic Spiritual Exchanges:

These are very interesting ideas for a national replacement of the Seasonal Endowment of Jen-Lai, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang! Still... well, I believe that for the good of all Atys (OOC: and the many non-roleplayers who are the majority I think) newcomers should be supported even without any conditions... How about a compromise: what do you think about giving out at least one full equipment to refugees for free and only start asking them questions if they want to be equipped with better stuff a second time or even more often?

If needed I will definitely gladly help providing this endowment with wares, materials and even occupation-products as good as I can. Unfortunately my skills are limited as I have never been keen on achieving the "best" euqipment/materials - but as the project seems to mainly equip newcomers I might still be of help. Maybe I can also provide storage-space if needed.

For this I'd like to know the exact requirements - what kind of equipments are normally needed / given to whom?

Speaking of "whom": there is another thing I have been thinking about - what about providing the merchants in all capitals with newcomer-equipment regularly (we just have to keep in mind to take unsold equipment back before it is sold off and will vanish from the sales pitch)? Of course made in Zorai-designs and maybe even with a few words of wisdom as an inscription on the equipment?

I'm not sure if maybe other homins are already taking care of doing exactly this, and it would need a bit of thinking about what steps of qualities would be most appreciated/wanted by newcomers - but will not "overpower" them too much. I believe that giving newcomers the "very best" equipment like made from supreme materials or the like might demotivate them from trying to achieve better skills in harvesting and crafting themselves. This has actually happened to me back in my times of youth...

4. new Treaty of Four Nations

Thank you very much for informing me/us about this, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang. We of Hoi-Cho also know very little about this. In Dyron we were told that Icus (of all homins!) had suggested a rewriting of the treaty to officially merge all the existing different versions, and had wanted to phrase it much like the "TENANT"-version... Weirdly enough I also heard about Zorai from Jen-Lai wanting to help out with the new version and there was even a rumor about the Sharükos Lykos approving of this rewriting even before Dyron or Pyr knew about it... I wish these rumors to be cleared up and the truth to come to light.

As this project is an international one I'd really like representatives of ALL cities on Atys to be able to contribute to it and to talk about it together. The same goes for the free trade aggreement. Maybe we could initiate an international meeting of all political representatives who are interested, plus at least one representative of each government as well (Sages, Senators, Advisors of the king, Governors/Intendants)? It would give us Zorai some reputation if we were able to arrange something like this...

5. free trade agreement

Yes, I have collected all kinds of knowledge about this topic on this board. However here's an overview: at the Assembly of Taliari on Folially 4 in the 4th cycle of AtysYear 2572 (OOC: April 15th 2013) Taliar Luth McFay has suggested a free trade agreement that would allow merchants to (very) freely cross all nations without talking to political representatives first...

You, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, have reminded me of the old trading-agreement that has been signed in 2516 in Hoi-Cho by leaders of the four nations. http://atys.ryzom.com/projects/puben/wiki/L_ZoraiNewBegin Slightly differently phrased versions have become known on Atys as you have found out. So I have - repeatedly - asked the Sage Gangi Cheng-Ho and the dynastic circle about the exact wording of this free trade agreement; but nobody was able to find out more about it since then. Maybe the documents were lost during the second Great Swarming?

Also the Treaty of the Four Peoples was signed later on, and there is one passage that might override the "free trade agreement" at least partly: "10. Homins living in the territory of another Nation or travelling through another Nation have to respect the laws of that Nation ..." and "16. this Treaty takes priority before all prior agreements between the signing Nations" http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=topic/view/16969/23 23 This especially will apply to any restrictions we Zorai might want to establish about dealings with Goo and maybe with living organisms (like termites altered by potions).

I have also asked the Taliari if they are still interested in phrasing a new free trade agreement on a national level. Governor Denen Toen had already voice his support on this topic as soon as Taliar Loth had mentioned it, and also Governor Ailan Mac'Kean said on Germinally 29th in the 4th cycle of AtysYear 2573 (OOC: June 26th 2013) in Windermeer that it sounds like a good thing but that the details will have to be discussed a lot. I totally agree with her on this! However up until now no official national decision was made and no proposal by the Taliari towards any other nation to talk about free trade...

6. Law about Goo

To be on the sure side - which seems wise to me in this case - we will have to wait a while longer with a rephrasing of the Law until all uncertainties have been removed. I have pointed out the differences we have found to the Sage Gangi Cheng-Ho. He said he'd address them within the Council of the Elders. I hope he has already done so and we will hear more about it at the next Assembly. Otherwise we will have to wait until our honored Sages will come to terms about what to tell us and the public about this delicate and potentially dangerous topic.

I have read the article about scientific ethics with much interest and I thank you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, for kindly translating it to the dialect of Min-Cho. The ethic principles of the N'ASA are admirable and fall into line with what most Zorai would call "wisdom" for sure. I am glad that these principles do not forbid to research the Goo at all costs, even examining it by looking at it... Maybe the place where to do experimentations (and where not!) should also be defined, especially when it's about Goo (and termites)?

As a side note I believe that the words of Tao Sian about research on the Goo (we cannot tell much about this dangerous topic to the public, not even Zorai) might be understood like "within the Theocracy nobody is allowed to research the Goo except for specific experts/scholars" (OOC: aka "NPCs / Event-characters only" :) ).

This would also explain why the tribe "Black Circles" has repeatedly tried to get permission to research the goo from the Theocracy http://atys.ryzom.com/projects/4/wiki/L_Tribes

(OOC: there is a small but very signficant difference between the German and the English version here: In English: "The tribe also excerces pressure on governments for goo study to be accepted so they can lawfully use the goo all over the planet without restraint."
Versus the (translated) German-version: "The tribe also exerts pressure on governments for THEIR (own) goo-studies to be accepted, ..." http://atys.ryzom.com/projects/pubde/wiki/Die_Stämme)

I will try to confirm this to be sure at the next Assembly. If this will prove true the Law will have to state that within the Witherings research on the Goo has to be specially permitted by the authorities in charge (most likely Tao Sian) and shall be forbidden to everyone else.

There might be some confusion why or if the Theocracy "allows" tribes in the Witherings to experiment with Goo - so we might have to make this clear too: experimentations like the Black Circles and maybe the Masters of the Goo are said to make are of course forbidden and even detested by the Theocracy. Also Goo-drugs like the Goo-Heads use are illegal and all Zorai shall be warned about these drugs as they can madden homins and in the end kill them. At least this warning should be placed in the law?

If asked we can tell homins from other nations that we Zorai have often tried to negotiate with the "goo-tribes" in the past, trying to persuade them to change their ways. We have also fought them repeatedly, which sadly has not made them stop, but has even caused them to threaten the Theocracy to spread Goo over large areas of the Witherings as a counter-measure and blackmail... Still I would not like to include this explanation of the last paragraph into the text of the law!

Kamia'ata,

I am sorry to put this at the last time, but .... happenings happen.
So, here is a suggestion of phrasing for the law about Goo. It includes an introduction explaining motivation first, and then the law itself.
I tried to be short but accurate, avoiding things that are obvious. I think here at saying that people not following the law would lead to court proceeding ...
Well, I let you make your opinion.

As being written in dialect of Min-Cho, don't hesitate to point a mistake, or unapropriate use of words, if you see one.

Atys'ata, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang!

Thank you for suggesting an alternative phrasing for this law after all this time.

I want to remind everyone that Hoi-Cho has proposed to pass this law on Fallenor 16th in the first cycle of Atys-Year 2572 (OOC: March 1st 2013) for the first time. Since then I have been trying to get opinions and response from the other cities.

Additions have been wished for by the Awakened Astarth (about research on the Goo!) and the Awakened Fey-Lin Liang (about Goo not being "goods" or "wares", how to handle Goo without being infected, and how to destroy Goo/have it destroyed). There was silence for a long time whenever I asked for opinions about my draft and the Sages have seemingly not taken a look at the drafts as well; later on also objections were voiced by Fey-Lin Liang...

Please know that a law much like the one that I proposed as my first draft has already been in force in Hoi-Cho before the second Great Swarming. So this law is a matter of concern not only for me but for my hometown - including my mentor and superior, the Awakened Sartyica, and all the other Awakened and Initiates who have gone missing before or during the second Great Swarming, but might return at any time. Also many homins on Atys speaking the dialect of Hoi-Cho have known this law for a long time.

And now a suggestion with nearly no reference to the text of Hoi-Cho is made, but a version with a lot of loopholes instead? Please understand that I cannot just meekly nod my head and say: "Yes, yes, let's just agree to Jen-Lai's phrasing of the law that leaves out an immensely large section of what we in Hoi-Cho have put much thought into, and also Awakened Astarths wishes. At least a law is passed at last.".

Unfortunately a quick approval is out of the question. And I will protest with all my might against any approval of Sages or other Awakened to this new version of the law from Jen-Lai and any votings done about this new law if my drafts that have been suggested repeatedly and have even been a matter of official petitions to the Sages long before that will be ignored by this.

You, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, did also not just quickly approve of any of the drafts that I have presented since Mystia 3, 1st AC 2572 (OOC: March 4th 2013) http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=post/view/110429 So as I have been made to wait and worry for this long the working-out of an exact phrasing can still wait a little longer.

Again I want to point out that this law shall inform all newcomers and visitors of the Witherings about unwritten rules that we Zorai think of as "obvious". We Zorai normally would not have need of such a law - which I remember that you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, have agreed to.

So I strongly refuse to leave out anything from this law that seems to be "obvious" to us Zorai. We have to take into account that other homins like Marauders think extremely differently and refugees from other countries might very well know nothing at all about our society and principles.

There is absolutely no reason for laws to be "short".
Instead it is very important to not leave big loopholes that could be abused.

So I will take your latest wished for additions into account and rephrase the latest draft to add this - this law will get even longer of course, but there is no harm done with that; since a law that all homins shall understand should also take all eventualities into account that we can think of.

Here's my updated suggestion for the goo-bill - taking into account ALL the additions that have been wished for. Excluding the unanswered questions about Goo that Tao Sian or other officials will still have to clarify (how to handle Goo without being infected, how to destroy Goo):

The Goo is a manifestation of nothingness that threatens the equilibrium of the nature on Atys instead of being a part of it. The only wise way to handle Goo is to bring about its destruction and to decrease its spreading to protect nature.

Those who believe they use Goo actually let Goo use them. The corruption of the Goo affects both the physical shell and the spirit of those who deal with it. So, according to the teaching of the Kami and in the interest of Atys and of everything living on, the Zorai Theocracy forbids any action in attempt to use Goo for whatever the reason or purpose.

In detail the Theocracy hereby forbids the production, use, unauthorized possession, import, export, trading/transfer, advertising/offering of all kinds of objects, item-parts, fillings or components and the like, that are mixed, filled or processed with Goo of any kind in the Witherings.

The Theocracy especially strictly bans the use, equipping, producing and/or trading of weapons and munition made with or from Goo, as well as any kinds of drugs made of Goo.

Transportation of Goo-infected items, parts, fillings, Goo-drugs or the like through the Witherings is forbidden except for the purpose to deliver them to the officials in the capital city Zora. As Goo is a plaque for Atys and everything living on it, Goo-contaminated items, item-parts, fillings, Goo-drugs and so on of any kind are not to be seen as "wares" nor "goods".

Any counteracting against this law will lead to court proceedings and will be punished severely.

The Kamis have granted the task to fight against the Goo to the Zorai people but also ask all willing homins to dig up Goo and Goo-polluted materials from the bark of Atys in order to destroy the Goo. Goo and Goo-polluted materials can be brought to Zora and will be destroyed by the officials there.

Any sightings of Goo-polluted objects, item-parts or the like (especially weapons and ammunition) in the Witherings shall also be reported to the officials of the amber cities as quickly as possible.

Even though fire can be used to destroy Goo please refrain from using fire freely on the bark. Remember the fire of Coriolis; sap can be dangerously inflammable. Fire must never be allowed to spread on a large scale in the Witherings since this could severely damage nature and endanger many species.

Only specifically authorized official scholars of the Witherings are allowed to carefully research the Goo, as it is their task to do so. Interested scientists may ask Tao Sian, the first dynastic physician and renowned scholar, for permission and teachings about such research, to learn about the utmost caution that will be needed with respect for the nature of Atys.

About the "oath of fight against Goo of the people Zoraï": I was told that even Initiates do not have to swear to fight the Goo during their Initiation-ceremony (OOC: at least not in the German version). Maybe our officials think that this oath is not needed since all Zorai know the teachings of the Kamis from the time of our adoption-ceremony when we receive our masks. As I see it the necessity to fight against the Goo belongs to our principle of respect of nature anyways.

If there is still need of changes, additions or rephrasing (maybe it should be "Laï-le Ban" instead of "court"?) I'm of course willing to discuss any concern - not merely misspellings...

Kamia'ata,

I would like to propose another way to have a text taking everything into account.
I think the rule is written so that it can be teached and learned by anyone. In this purpose, it should be short enough not to make it a burden. On the other side, there is a need of details in order to prevent any kind of abuse or bypass, as honorary initiate Zhoi noticed.

Thus, what i suggest is a text in multiple parts : an introduction, a short main rule, and a detailed explanation as sub-articles, covering the many possibilities so far.

As a short notice, i'd like to point out the sacred texts from the Order of Ma-Duk, they may help finding the best phrasing about the Goo. In our case, i noticed a translation using "nothingness", that carry the same meaning, but could be replaced with the "Void", for both being accurate and shorter sentence.

Now, to answer your questions, Zhoi, when I speak about the Oath to fight the Goo, i was referring to the Oath made by our ancestors after the first meeting with a Kami. Yes, It is implied by our main values, but is something that every initiate should have in mind.
About the words of "court proceeding" and "punishment", i find this influenced by foreign customs, rather than a zorai way of dealing (OOC : i find this too much inspired by our modern western societies to fit with what I imagine for Zorai culture). On another hand, the Lai-le Ban tradition may not fit with such situations, as well as with the recent affair with a marauder. But this is another topic .

I will try to work on some changes on the text, mainly a matter of order of the sentences and presentation, to present here later.

Kami bini liu, lai-ho'i

Kamia'ata, here is my proposal.

Preamble :

The Theocracy reminds that the Goo is a manifestation of the Void, able to corrupt both bodies and mind, and threatening Atys itself. Therefore, according to the teachings of the Kamis and to its own values, the Theocracy declare the following rules.

Main article :

It is forbidden to use or attempt to use Goo in any way and for whatever purpose.
It is a duty to destroy or in the worst case limit the spread of Goo.

Explanatory articles :

This law applies to Goo under its many forms, as well as to any kind of object, item-parts, fillings or components and the like, that are mixed, filled or processed with Goo of any kind, especially weapons, ammunitions and drugs made using Goo, called afterwards Goo-contaminated items, or objects.

It is forbiden to produce, use, import, export, trade, transfer, advertise, offer, equip, consume such items.

The possession and transportation of such items is also forbidden except for the following cases.

Goo and Goo-contaminated items, if unable to be destroyed, have to be transported with extreme caution and delivered to the officials of the Cities of Amber who will kake care of their destruction.

Any sightings of Goo or Goo-contaminated objects in the Witherings shall also be reported to the officials of the amber cities as quickly as possible.

It is forbidden to contaminate a living being, especially in order to conceal a transportation of Goo.

Any counteracting against this law will be severely punished.

I added a sentence about contaminating a living being, as I noticed that everything we were talking about were objects only.
I removed the sentence about the fire, because I think that it is not the purpose of a law about Goo to say what to do, or not to do, with fire. Besides, I think that setting a natural fire is forbiden too, as it is damaging Atys.
I removed the sentence about research, because of two issues : first, a law cannot refer to a person. though I have best wishes for Tao Sian, peoples die, law must stay. Second : our Great Mask declared again the forbidance of experimentations on or with Goo. We rather wait for more explanations before including this aspect to the law.

I am sorry to have taken so much time before working on this. Still there are a few weeks (IG) before next Assembly.

I am waiting to read your opinion.

(OOC : Finally, i could but do nothing else than phrase this in a modern way, so much for our Zorai culture .... :p)

I agree with your phrasing of the text.
There's one passage I am missing here though that I STRONGLY insist on have included:

"As Goo is a plague, Goo-contaminated items, item-parts, fillings, Goo-drugs and so on of any kind are not to be seen as "wares" nor "goods"."

We've debated over this for quite a while and I thought we had agreed to put this into the law...

I also think it is - imperative - necessary to make it absolutely clear that only authorized homins will be permitted to do research within the Witherings and that everyone else will be forbidden to do so. Otherwise homins acting against this law could just bluntly claim that they are "only" using Goo "for research"-purposes and this "cannot be forbidden" as long as it's not stated clearly in the law...

So we must close this loop hole before it can be abused!

True, a person's name should not be included in the law - still this law can be updated any time later on. So how about a simpler phrasing, like this:

Only scholars and scientists specifically authorized by the Theocracy are allowed to research the Goo within the Witherings with all caution and respect for nature.

I disagree with your interpretation of the words of the Great Mask about a prohibition of experimentations. Because after our Grand Sage said that "research" on the Goo is forbidden, Tao Sian said that such research had been done by specific officials scholars in the past and is still done in the present. There was no explicit differentiation made between "experiments" and "research" yet.

Please remember that no ban on researches of Goo has existed for some of our cities in the past - but the exact opposite. For two of three cities t has even been a TASK for the circles of the Theocracy to do research to find methods to heal the Goo in the past!

For Min-Cho it was said and STILL is written down in their rules: 11.2. The First Circle will study and seek a cure to the Goo, the disease afflicting Atys. http://app.ryzom.com/app_lore/index.php?page=/projects/puben/wiki /L_ZoraiGovOrg, and also for Hoi-Cho it STILL says: "11.2. Der zweite Kreis soll nach einem Heilmittel gegen das Goo forschen, die Krankheit, die Atys befallen hat." http://app.ryzom.com/app_lore/index.php?page=/projects/pubde/wiki /L_Die_Kreise_der_Zorai )

True: more clear words from our officials will be very helpful to phrase this passage of the law correctly.

The passage about destroying Goo in my version of the law will also still have to be discussed with officials, so I agree with leaving that out for now.

I merely want to remind you, Awakened Fey-Lin Liang, that it was YOUR wish to include a clarification about "how to destroy Goo" (and how to handle it safely without being contaminated) into this law, so that's why I had added it in the first place.

We might have to talk about setting natural fires on Atys later on too I think, at least as soon as it becomes possible again to produce camp-fires. If this was forbidden, there cannot be any Zorai-alchemists in the future, which would be extremely retrenching.

Permanent camp-fires are also being set up in Zora though, which makes it pretty clear that fires like these must be alright to be used though...

The rules of old that were handed down to us say: "Respect of nature: Our culture is built on a deep respect for nature. You must guard against over-exploitation and fire, and at all costs fight against the goo which the Kamis are powerless to repel." http://app.ryzom.com/app_lore/index.php?page=/projects/puben/wiki /L_BeingZorai

This is a bit different from the Trykers' old rules, where the forbidden kind of fire is specified as "dragon fire", while camp-fires are in use in/around Fairhaven: "It is forbidden to spread dragon fire over the lands. It makes the land sterile." http://app.ryzom.com/app_lore/index.php?page=/projects/puben/wiki /L_BeingTryker, also for the Matis, who use camp-fires as well: "It is forbidden to spread dragon fire over the lands. It devours the trees and deprives us of essences for our creations." http://app.ryzom.com/app_lore/index.php?page=/projects/puben/wiki /L_BeingMatis.

So this makes me think that the word "dragon" before "fire" might have only been left out by mistake in the old rules for us Zorai... We might want to clarify this with our officials too in the future...

Kamia'ata,

By reading your opinion, i think i found whre to add again this sentence :

Explanatory articles :

This law applies to Goo under its many forms, as well as to any kind of object, item-parts, fillings or components and the like, that are mixed, filled or processed with Goo of any kind, especially weapons, ammunitions and drugs made using Goo, called afterwards Goo-contaminated items, or objects. Such items , being contaminated, cannot be seen as "wares" or "goods".


I didn't give any interpretation at all, about research or experimentation. If I had to, I would consider these as different, as stated in the N'ASA text about ethics. But then, I guess we can take the risk to add a sentence still, like the following one, just before the sentence about sightings of Goo.

Only scholars and eventually scientists specifically authorized by the Theocracy are allowed to conduct researches on Goo within the Witherings, excluding any kind of experimentation with Goo, and with all caution and respect for nature.

I didn't wish to include a clarification about how to destroy Goo in this law, I asked for a clarification to be done, as a seminary, lesson, whatever . Because it is related to Goo doesn't mean it has to be in the law.

About fire, "Dragon Fire" is a term originating from the false teachings of the Karavan. We cannot allow such words to be used in the Theocracy. There is natural fire, uncontrolled and dangerous, and there is magic fire, which can be produced and controlled thanks to magic.

I agree with your phrasings of the two suggested additions to the law:

"This law applies to Goo under its many forms, as well as to any kind of object, item-parts, fillings or components and the like, that are mixed, filled or processed with Goo of any kind, especially weapons, ammunitions and drugs made using Goo, called afterwards Goo-contaminated items, or objects. Such items, being contaminated, cannot be seen as "wares" or "goods".

Only scholars and eventually scientists specifically authorized by the Theocracy are allowed to conduct researches on Goo within the Witherings, excluding any kind of experimentation with Goo, and with all caution and respect for nature."

For the understanding of older laws/rules and theories about destroying Goo and fire I can foresee interesting discussions with our officials, maybe even at the upcoming Assembly with honored first physician Tao Sian.

I just remembered something lately that I had long forgotten. It concerns the text for the Goo-bill as well the seminar about Goo by Tao Sian that will be held:

On the old temple of Ma-Duk outside of Zora it said:

"The Creation of Atys

From the beginning of time, two opposing principles formed the matrix of the universe: the Void and the Creative Energy, also known as the Life Giver.
...
From the bowels of the green planet, the great Life Giver brought forth the Kamis and endowed them with spirit, a fragment of his own consciousness, then sent them forth to watch over his creation. Gifted with vast magical powers, the Kamis came to the surface to explore the lands under their protection. Hidden in the midst of the wonders of Atys, the Kamis encountered the Goo, born from an infinitesimal particle of Void that was mixed in with the creative breath of the great Life Giver. The Goo was gradually devouring Atys.

The Kamis were helpless in the face of this menace, because they could not destroy the Void. Salvation would have to come from other beings: the homins.

The Kamis and the Zoraï

The Kamis initiated the Zoraïs into the secrets of magic.
...
Then the Zoraïs' high Magi began to study the arcane mysteries, using sacred writing to transmit their knowledge. They learned the secret powers of lightning, and created the first peoples' magic, the magic of electricity.
...
Using their magic and their knowledge of magnetism, the Zoraïs fought the Goo that was eating away at the forests of Atys. In the name of the Kamis, they bravely battled this plague."

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Kami#The_Kamis_and_the_Zora.C3.AF

We of Hoi-Cho have known the same text, there is practically no difference in our dialect, at least in meaning.

any chance of getting a link from http://atys.ryzom.com and not a player written website like ryzomnomnom.com ?